Gardencap from song - Deeside, Scotland (1 Viewer)

Capercaillie71 · May 13, 2008

It's that time of year again. Feeling pretty confident of my ability to identify our two confusing Sylvia warblers, I found myself stumped by one at the weekend which stubbornly refused to show itself and which did not seem to be in the mood for sustained singing. I'm leaning towards Garden warbler - partly on the dubious grounds of habitat, but I'd be interested in more expert opinions.

For comparison I've also attached recordings of both species from the previous day, where I am certain of the ID (sorry about the background noise on the GW, but the River Dee was directly behind it).

Andrew Whitehouse · May 13, 2008

Sounds like a Garden Warbler to me. Low mellow notes predominate and there aren't really the sweet high notes of Blackcap. To me it actually sounds pretty similar to the definite Garden Warbler you've posted.

Capercaillie71 · May 13, 2008

Thanks Andrew. It just didn't sound quite as rushed as a garden warbler going at full tilt, but then it wasn't really bothering itself to sing properly. It was buried deep in some bird cherry scrub, which is the usual habitat of garden warblers here, but there were taller trees around.

The definite GW I posted was much easier - it was singing from a perch five metres away in full view for about 10 minutes!

Sue Wright · May 14, 2008

Not too sure about the first one, but the 2nd and 3rd both sound like a Garden Warbler to me.

Sue.

KnockerNorton · May 14, 2008

I'm not sure I'd call the first one as GW. The phrases are pretty short, like a Blackcap. GW tend to rattle on a bit longer, as in your 2nd one, whereas Blackcaps keep it short and sweet, as in the 3rd.

CAU · May 14, 2008

Sue Wright said:
Not too sure about the first one, but the 2nd and 3rd both sound like a Garden Warbler to me.

Sue.

The third one is a certain Blackcap used for reference (post #1), and to me it sounds like one, too. You can hear the fluty tunes at about 5s and 21s. The first one sounds like a Garden Warbler to me (and of course the second one, too, which is also used for reference).

Andrew Whitehouse · May 14, 2008

Poecile said:
I'm not sure I'd call the first one as GW. The phrases are pretty short, like a Blackcap. GW tend to rattle on a bit longer, as in your 2nd one, whereas Blackcaps keep it short and sweet, as in the 3rd.

I never find the length of phrases that helpful unless it really rambles on a long while, in which case I'd go for Garden Warbler. If it's short it could be either. I heard a Garden Warbler in Deeside a couple of weeks ago that did some very short bursts of song.

Capercaillie71 · May 14, 2008

Thanks for the comments. Just to clarify - the two reference recordings are certainly correct as both birds were clearly visible while I was recording them.

The first recording was on a bird atlas timed tetrad visit some miles away from the reference site. I have provisionally put it down as a garden warbler, but hopefully I may track it down again on my next visit. The short phrases were one of the main things causing me to doubt garden warbler, but I think Andrew's last comment is probably right.

bitterntwisted · May 14, 2008

The first bird is a Garden Warbler as Andrew says. Sometimes short bursts like this can be hard, but this definitely has the continuous bubbling quality and a deeper richer tone. I know this pair can always trip you up but I think this is clear-cut to my ears.

Graham

davercox · May 14, 2008

As Poecile says, the phrases are short, which would usually indicate Blackcap.
But the first phrase certainly has the tone qualities of Garden Warbler; the second (with Magpie accompaniment) is more Blackcappy. There are very some very high notes at the start of both that don't come out too well (to my ears) in this recording, but don't sound like Blackcap to me.
I would agree with Garden Warbler, but this is one of those that always leave me less than 100% sure.

[P.S. I agree with Andrew's comment about the length of phrases]

markgrubb · May 14, 2008

Interesting. The bird sounds to me like a garden warbler-I heard one today singing quietly in short phrases. To my ears a blackcap always has a fluted clear tone whereas a garden warbler though it may have some of the same high pitched clear notes has lower notes and at times it's song has an almost scratchy quality

As a matter of interest Paul have you made a sonogram of the birds song? The Sound Approach shows the difference in sonograms with the garden warblers descent into lower frequencies. It might be interesting to see

Andrew Whitehouse · May 14, 2008

markgrubb said:
Interesting. The bird sounds to me like a garden warbler-I heard one today singing quietly in short phrases. To my ears a blackcap always has a fluted clear tone whereas a garden warbler though it may have some of the same high pitched clear notes has lower notes and at times it's song has an almost scratchy quality

As a matter of interest Paul have you made a sonogram of the birds song? The Sound Approach shows the difference in sonograms with the garden warblers descent into lower frequencies. It might be interesting to see

I just made some. The first is the first burst of song. The second, with chilling inevitability, is the second.

markgrubb · May 14, 2008

Andrew Whitehouse said:
I just made some. The first is the first burst of song. The second, with chilling inevitability, is the second.

So just to be clear Andrew,as I have only a tentative understanding of sonograms-blackcap song drops to around 2khz typically and garden warbler down to around 1khz-meaning that this is a blackcap(and I had better be sure of seeing these singing birds in the next few weeks and not just rely on the song:-C)

Andrew Whitehouse · May 14, 2008

markgrubb said:
So just to be clear Andrew,as I have only a tentative understanding of sonograms-blackcap song drops to around 2khz typically and garden warbler down to around 1khz-meaning that this is a blackcap(and I had better be sure of seeing these singing birds in the next few weeks and not just rely on the song:-C)

I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet Mark. Looking at the Sound Approach sonograms, the Blackcap song shows a number of clear high notes, around 6-8 khz, which aren't apparent here. I still think it's a Garden Warbler and if anything the sonogram reinforces that view.

markgrubb · May 14, 2008

I've just reread the Sound Approach chapter re these 2 birds and perhaps it sheds a little light (he says feebly clutching at straws).

I feel I have no difficulty in id'ing a blackcap song when it is singing full on-the persistent true fluted,clear notes. When I hear a garden warbler I do hesitate as there are some of the same fluted notes but with time you usually hear the scratchy tone and lower notes and the long continuous less varied song. And when I have seen the birds I am most of the time right.

The SA book talks about the plastic/subsong that blackcaps give in the UK in spring and the variety of timbre and pitch that is very variable.

The examples the book gives show b'caps as having longer bursts of song than garden warblers interestingly.

Even in the book the b'caps are not postively id'd visually for the plastic/subsong recorded

Maybe even more of a minefield than we'd thought?

CAU · May 14, 2008

Even the reference Garden Warbler doesn't drop below 2 kHz:

griffin · May 14, 2008

Probably best to record longer sequences of songs. If you have a longer sequence of the "gardencap" please upload it as it would be interesting to hear !

Regarding the length of phrases, that is perhaps a red herring in this instance. As a musician I don't necessarily put too much precedence on phrase length per se, though I agree with Poecile that typical Garden W tends to ramble on a bit. On this point, and again as a musician, Blackcap phrases to me seem to make perfect structural sense - essentially they have shape and closure. Garden Warbler phrases, to my ears anyway, often sound like extracted skylark phrases - eseentially gibberish ! However, if they are short phrases as in your questionable example it is a difficult call.

Just my two pennies worth.

Lindsay

Capercaillie71 · May 15, 2008

griffin said:
Probably best to record longer sequences of songs. If you have a longer sequence of the "gardencap" please upload it as it would be interesting to hear !

The two phrases recorded were the first that I managed to get after switching the recorder on. The original recording does have another couple of phrases that are partly obscured by handling noise as the bird seemed to move to another part of the scrub. It then stopped singing and despite hanging about for 20 minutes or so I didn't hear it again. I'll maybe upload the other two phrases when I get home this evening, but I think the best thing will be to return to the site at the weekend.

Capercaillie71 · May 19, 2008

I revisited the 'gardencap' site this morning. Nothing was singing, but after a few minutes I heard a promising contact/alarm call that led me to a nice Garden Warbler flitting about in full view in the lower branches of an ash tree, just next to the bushes where I recorded the song last week.

Of course I can't guarantee that it was the same bird, but I think it is very likely to have been.

Capercaillie71 · May 19, 2008

And here's the alarm call:

Gardencap from song - Deeside, Scotland (1 Viewer)

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