Swaro 80HD, Leica 77APO, Fieldscope ED82: and the winner is....... (1 Viewer)

willemw · Dec 12, 2004

Dear all

Based on a wide variety of reviews and comments, I have decided for the Nikon ED82A with the zoom eyepiece 25-75x. Later, I will add the new Fieldscope wide DS
30. The problem is that nowhere in Europe or the US these new DS eyepieces are available yet. I expect that digiscoping will be done in particular with the DS eyepiece. That is a digiscoping-eyepiece, according to the information of Nikon.
Thanks again for all the helpful remarks and observations.

Willem

Keith Reeder · Dec 12, 2004

Excellent choice, Willem - it's a much-loved scope on this forum.

willemw · Dec 13, 2004

Thanks, Keith, I'll let the forum know how it worked out!

Tom Brewis · Feb 23, 2005

Nikon ED82 scope

Hi Willem
I have just followed the long thread concerning your purchase of the Nikon ED82 scope. I am seriously thinking of buying this scope or similar.
What have been your experiences with the scope since you bought it? I might add that I'm particularly interested in the scope from a digiscoping perspective.
I would be very interested in any advice you may have to offer.

Regards,
Tom

willemw said:
Thanks, Keith, I'll let the forum know how it worked out!

Andrew Whitehouse · Feb 23, 2005

Hi Tom,

I've bought an ED82 with a 30x lens a few months ago and have been using it for digiscoping as well. You can see some of the better results in my gallery:

http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/3550

I use it with a CP4500 and the Nikon adapter rings (there's quite a good deal on these and the scope from Warehouse Express by the way). The main problem with the 30x lens for digiscoping is that it's a bit too much magnification and doesn't have enough eye relief so the magnifications that you end up having to work with to avoid vignetting are always very high. The image is still extremely bright and sharp to the edges though, so good pictures are very possible.

In my opinion the main deficiency with the ED82 is with the choice of lenses. If Nikon made a lens with long eye relief that worked as a 20x on the ED82 then this would be a great help for digiscoping and for some birdwatching. A wide angle zoom would also be very useful. I think the Zeiss might has the edge on the Nikon (and probably the Leica and Swarowski) in these terms. Having said that, the optics of the ED82 with the 30x are immaculate - a fantastic wide, bright and sharp image.

scampo · Feb 23, 2005

I think the Nikon zoom at 25x is fine for digiscoping. It's true that you need slightly more zoom when compared with the Zeiss but this doesn't seem to affect the final outcome so much as do the other frustrating variables that seem to get in the way of a good shot, far too often in the early stages of digiscoping, such as low shutter speed, camera shake, difficulty in focusing and so forth (and especially the way those birds decide to move just as you press the shutter).

The Nikon zoom is incredibly sharp and bright, too. From what has been posted here, the perfect digiscoper's scope would seem to be a scope with a low power eyepiece such as the new Kowa eyepieces - but I think Nikon might be launching something similar, if I recall a recent post on this matter.

One point in favour of the Zeiss (what a zoom lens it has!) is the Zeiss swing adapter. Those here that have used it swear by it.

gorank · Apr 16, 2005

There is a new nikon adaptor (FSB-1) for especially for the cameras 5900/7900/5200/4200 (not 4500). The adaptor seems very good, I tried it on the outdoor-fair yesterday. The 24 x DS eyepiece (gives 30X for the ED82) and the FSB-1 adaptor gives NO/NADA/NULL vignetting when using the 7900/7600 at any zoom level. And has a ordinary wired (physical) remote! http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/news/2004/digiscoping_e_04.htm. I hope to evaluate this product in practice soon.

Still I dont understand how Nikon's is thinking. As someone said above; why not a low-magnification eye piece? The very important exit pupil with a 30x and 82 mm objective diameter is 2,7 mm, with a 20x eyepiece and 80 mm it gives you 4 mm, the relative AREA of the exit pupil is (exit pupil/2)^2. ED82 is about 1 f-stop less bright than a 80mm/20x combo (in theory at least). The largest exit pupil area is delivered by the zeiss 65 mm scope at zoom setting 15x. So Nikon, why on earth a new 60x DS eyepiece for digiscoping that I strongly doubt is usable in practise... and not a 16x/20x...???

gorank · Apr 16, 2005

I think I will answer my own question...=)
Since you don't have to zoom in at all to avoid vignetting (with the 24x/30x DS eyepiece), the risk for shake may not be worse than with a CP4500/20x/80mm combination.
For the CP5900/30x/82ED with zoom at wide angle the composite focal length will be 1140 mm, which would be quite ok to handle, and might actually be less than than what you have when zooming/avoiding vignetting with a CP4500/20x/80mm combination.

iporali · Apr 18, 2005

gorank said:
Still I dont understand how Nikon's is thinking. As someone said above; why not a low-magnification eye piece? The very important exit pupil with a 30x and 82 mm objective diameter is 2,7 mm, with a 20x eyepiece and 80 mm it gives you 4 mm, the relative AREA of the exit pupil is (exit pupil/2)^2. ED82 is about 1 f-stop less bright than a 80mm/20x combo (in theory at least). The largest exit pupil area is delivered by the zeiss 65 mm scope at zoom setting 15x. So Nikon, why on earth a new 60x DS eyepiece for digiscoping that I strongly doubt is usable in practise... and not a 16x/20x...???

Gorank,

Although you did answer to your question (which has been puzzling some others too), I still think someone at Nikon should read this forum more carefully. There are some points which IMHO reveal that Nikon is handling the digiscoping business somewhat left-handedly:
1. I don't understand, who asked for a 60x digiscoping eyepiece! OK, It may be useful in scopes like the Astrophysics Stowaway, but I doubt that is the market they were thinking

. If we wanted a narrow field-of-view, we could just as well use the zoom.
2. Nikon could surely make a killer digiscoping eyepiece (16/20x), which does not vignette with compact digicams - if they wanted. It would only require enough (about 18 mm or more) eye-relief and a relatively wide field-of-view (see Leica's 20xWA).
3. The camera models designed for the Nikon bracket are only adjustable with that silly "You-pick-the-scene-and-the-camera-uses-the-appropriate-settings"-selection. Why, oh why is there not a true Tv, Av and P for those who would rather use them - the CPU of the camera could easily handle this. 7Mpix, but no aperture priority - c'mon Nikon!

Krhm... OK, I feel better now!

Ilkka

gorank · Apr 18, 2005

iporali said:
Gorank,

Although you did answer to your question (which has been puzzling some others too), I still think someone at Nikon should read this forum more carefully. There are some points which IMHO reveal that Nikon is handling the digiscoping business somewhat left-handedly:
1. I don't understand, who asked for a 60x digiscoping eyepiece! OK, It may be useful in scopes like the Astrophysics Stowaway, but I doubt that is the market they were thinking . If we wanted a narrow field-of-view, we could just as well use the zoom.
2. Nikon could surely make a killer digiscoping eyepiece (16/20x), which does not vignette with compact digicams - if they wanted. It would only require enough (about 18 mm or more) eye-relief and a relatively wide field-of-view (see Leica's 20xWA).
3. The camera models designed for the Nikon bracket are only adjustable with that silly "You-pick-the-scene-and-the-camera-uses-the-appropriate-settings"-selection. Why, oh why is there not a true Tv, Av and P for those who would rather use them - the CPU of the camera could easily handle this. 7Mpix, but no aperture priority - c'mon Nikon!

Krhm... OK, I feel better now!

Ilkka

1-2: agree.

3: i have thought about it like this: and first I thought: aarghh, no true Tv, Av control.
solution: sportsmode, selects the fastest shutter speed and largest apperture, hope I will live with it IF I buy the 7900...

At least spot metering and manual adustment of ISO seems to work...that is good.

Selection of AF-points is lacking I suspect??...not good..must check on this...but it seems reasonable..its a point and shooter..

the 2'' display is good,and the camera is quite responsive,

the mechanical remote is good, handling is very easy
i think better handling may be the biggest difference,
and make it easier to get the shot that you want.

7900 camera + adapter FSB-1 weights a few grams less than the CP4500..good..

no vignetting at all with the 24x/30x eyepiece, eye relief 19 mm, very nice too look into also..

7MP resolution...yepp..I think it will show...the human eye has better resolution than 4MP...so I never got as many details with the cp4500 as what I actually saw in the eye piece..

i have only found 3 photos taken with cp7900+ED82, yet...

http://www.ofo.ca/photos/greathornedowl1sb.jpg
http://www.ofo.ca/photos/greathornedowl2sb.jpg
http://www.ofo.ca/photos/greathornedowl3sb.jpg

they are small and not much to judge from...

generally I find few sharp pictures digiscoped with the ED82, this could be a problem with the too high magnification in combination with the CP4500 since zooming is needed and most people use the 30x eye piece, the ED82-optics itself should not be a problem when it comes to sharpness since it have had excelent reviews, reducing chromatic abberations could be better handled in the ATS 80HD and ZEISS 85FL than in Nikon. At least it is a feeling I get with my fieldscope IIIA ED...but I have not done any side by side comparison, but also the price jump to the ATS80HD is huge.

hinnark · Apr 18, 2005

iporali said:
Gorank,

2. Nikon could surely make a killer digiscoping eyepiece (16/20x), which does not vignette with compact digicams - if they wanted. It would only require enough (about 18 mm or more) eye-relief and a relatively wide field-of-view (see Leica's 20xWA).

Ilkka

Ilkka,

did you noticed what´s the problem with the 20/16x eyepiece of Leica? Take a look at its specifications on Leica´s website. The fov with the 77 scope and the 20x is 60m or 3,45°. With the small scope we have only 54 m or 3,1°. This is not what we´re expecting since small scopes deliver greater fovs most of the time, isn´t it? This is the case only with the 16/20x eyepiece. Obviously the small scope´s objective can´t deliver an image that is big enough for the 16x eyepiece that has been once developed for the Televid 77. Maybe with Nikons big and small scope there is the same issue and Nikon wants to avoid a lost of fov. Does anybody know the focal lenghts of the 60 and 82 Fieldscopes?

BTW it seems to me that Kowa put some more attention to the need of the digiscoper´s purpose. I´ve read that there is an ep available with 30mm (?) eye relief and the new TD-1 is a specialized digiscoping tool (I tried it last weekend on a birding fair and I was quite impressed about its optical quality). Kowa also offers there own adapters.

Steve

henry link · Apr 18, 2005

hinnark said:
Ilkka,

did you noticed what´s the problem with the 20/16x eyepiece of Leica? Take a look at its specifications on Leica´s website. The fov with the 77 scope and the 20x is 60m or 3,45°. With the small scope we have only 54 m or 3,1°. This is not what we´re expecting since small scopes deliver greater fovs most of the time, isn´t it? This is the case only with the 16/20x eyepiece. Obviously the small scope´s objective can´t deliver an image that is big enough for the 16x eyepiece that has been once developed for the Televid 77. Maybe with Nikons big and small scope there is the same issue and Nikon wants to avoid a lost of fov. Does anybody know the focal lenghts of the 60 and 82 Fieldscopes?

Steve

Steve,

Interesting. This kind of vignetting of the eyepiece field and consequent reduction of the real field with the 16/20X ocular could only happen at the eyepiece end of the scope, at or near the eyepiece fieldstop. Smaller prisms with smaller apertures in the erecting system of the 62mm would explain it. The effective focal lengths of the Nikon scopes are 60mm/420mm, 78 and 82mm/525mm.

Henry

iporali · Apr 18, 2005

hinnark said:
Ilkka,

did you noticed what´s the problem with the 20/16x eyepiece of Leica? Take a look at its specifications on Leica´s website. The fov with the 77 scope and the 20x is 60m or 3,45°. With the small scope we have only 54 m or 3,1°. This is not what we´re expecting since small scopes deliver greater fovs most of the time, isn´t it?

Steve,

Thanks for the info - I had not noticed that, and I agree that may well be the reason why 20x wide-angles are so rare in modern scopes. However, I still think the 20x (on the larger scope) would be very useful for digiscopers - after all, most of them use the larger scope anyway. And even that 54m on the small scope is IMO acceptable.

Ilkka

gorank · Apr 18, 2005

i did a test in the shop today with the following equipment:
scope: Nikon ED82
camera: Nikon coolpix 7900 (7MP) at iso 50
adaptor: Nikon FSB-1
eyepiece: Nikon 30x DS

here is a pic (LARGE FILES), the second one is just "color corrected" in photoshop (pic taken indoors so the white balance was a bit off).
notice that camera was fully zoomed OUT, there are no vignetting at any zoom level, with this camera/eyepiece combination. The noise levels for the CP7900 is not disturbing at 50 ISO but at higher values it could be a problem I think.

http://www.knutas.com/digiscoping/CP7900_ISO50_FSB1_30xWDS_ED82.jpg
http://www.knutas.com/digiscoping/CP7900_ISO50_FSB1_30xWDS_ED82_PSE3.jpg

here is a smaller version, color corected, noise reduction, USM, downsizing in photoshop.

http://www.knutas.com/digiscoping/CP7900_ISO50_FSB1_30xWDS_ED82_PSE3_small.jpg

pes · May 16, 2005

Andrew Whitehouse said:
The main problem with the 30x lens for digiscoping is that it's a bit too much magnification and doesn't have enough eye relief so the magnifications that you end up having to work with to avoid vignetting are always very high. The image is still extremely bright and sharp to the edges though, so good pictures are very possible.

In my opinion the main deficiency with the ED82 is with the choice of lenses. If Nikon made a lens with long eye relief that worked as a 20x on the ED82 then this would be a great help for digiscoping and for some birdwatching. A wide angle zoom would also be very useful. I think the Zeiss might has the edge on the Nikon (and probably the Leica and Swarowski) in these terms. Having said that, the optics of the ED82 with the 30x are immaculate - a fantastic wide, bright and sharp image.

are you talking of the MC 30x eyepiece or DS 30x eyepiece ?

The new DS eyepiece has exactly the same specs as the MC, except for a better eye relief (19mm vs 15mm). You can see at this page
http://nikon.topica.ne.jp/bi_e/products/nature_c.htm#d3
the differences between the DS and MC eyepieces regarding digiscoping with the CP4500.

Hope this helps,
Pierre

pes · May 16, 2005

gorank said:
i did a test in the shop today with the following equipment:
scope: Nikon ED82
camera: Nikon coolpix 7900 (7MP) at iso 50
adaptor: Nikon FSB-1
eyepiece: Nikon 30x DS

here is a pic (LARGE FILES), the second one is just "color corrected" in photoshop (pic taken indoors so the white balance was a bit off).
notice that camera was fully zoomed OUT, there are no vignetting at any zoom level, with this camera/eyepiece combination. The noise levels for the CP7900 is not disturbing at 50 ISO but at higher values it could be a problem I think.

http://www.knutas.com/digiscoping/CP7900_ISO50_FSB1_30xWDS_ED82.jpg
http://www.knutas.com/digiscoping/CP7900_ISO50_FSB1_30xWDS_ED82_PSE3.jpg

here is a smaller version, color corected, noise reduction, USM, downsizing in photoshop.

http://www.knutas.com/digiscoping/CP7900_ISO50_FSB1_30xWDS_ED82_PSE3_small.jpg

I digiscope with the same combination. Noise levels of the CP7900 are not disturbing to my eyes up to ISO 200. This is a good point for the camera.

But I found two MAJOR limitations in the field with the CP7900 for digiscoping:
1) the number of scene modes cannot counterbalance the lack of manual settings. I shoot either in "portrait mode" or "sport mode" to maximise shutter speeds and minimize DOF. Unfortunately, the camera's behaviour is very unpredictable. Even in portrait mode, the camera does choose sometimes a small aperture :-(((( Shame on you Nikon.
2) regarding sharpness. You can imagine that 7mp with a so small lens (and sensor) is really demanding in resolution. I have not calculate how many lines per mm the scope has to resolve to gives the resolution needed by this camera but I'm sure this is a large number. I have tried the CP7900 on several scopes+eyepieces combinations, and found that this camera needs really good optics. For example, I have obtained quite poor results with a Leica APO 77. On the Nikon ED82 + 30x DS eyepiece, resolution obtained when shooting at wide settings is good, but becomes poor at teleend. I found these resolution problems more limitating in practice than the CP7900 ISO performance for instance. I guess that 4-5 mp is the current limit that best current scopes can resolve.

When back at home, I will post some images obtained with the above combination.

Pierre

Andrew Whitehouse · May 17, 2005

pes said:
are you talking of the MC 30x eyepiece or DS 30x eyepiece ?

The new DS eyepiece has exactly the same specs as the MC, except for a better eye relief (19mm vs 15mm). You can see at this page
http://nikon.topica.ne.jp/bi_e/products/nature_c.htm#d3
the differences between the DS and MC eyepieces regarding digiscoping with the CP4500.

Hope this helps,
Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I have the MC 30x. I might think about getting the DS 30x one day, although I'd be more tempted if there was a DS 20x or 25x.

gorank · May 19, 2005

pes said:
I guess that 4-5 mp is the current limit that best current scopes can resolve.
Pierre

I would guess at least 6-7 MP,
There are definitely more detail to see in my 60mm scope than I get with my 4MP coolpix 4500, in the tests i have done,

pes · May 22, 2005

gorank said:
I would guess at least 6-7 MP,
There are definitely more detail to see in my 60mm scope than I get with my 4MP coolpix 4500, in the tests i have done,

I have observed the same thing: my eyes can see a lot of details in many scopes that the cameras are not able to reproduce on the sensor.
I have posted a thread on this subject:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=34231

puzzling for me... but I'm not an expert in optics :-(

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