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Ruddy Duck cull continuing (1 Viewer)

we should all stay the ~****out of trying to protect anything. we are always doing it and messing everything up animals/ people its as if these creatures wouldnt know what to do without us.. (everything just ticked along nicely till we tried to "help") we like killing things! thats most of the human race for ya i think all the people who want to kill things are b*****ds...unless its for food ofcourse..were spending loads trying to save the panda .and it doesnt want to mate .....like chris packham said we shouldnt bother
 
arniemonkey said:
we should all stay the ~****out of trying to protect anything. we are always doing it and messing everything up animals/ people its as if these creatures wouldnt know what to do without us.. (everything just ticked along nicely till we tried to "help") we like killing things! thats most of the human race for ya i think all the people who want to kill things are b*****ds...unless its for food ofcourse..were spending loads trying to save the panda .and it doesnt want to mate .....like chris packham said we shouldnt bother
Click to expand...

Arnie, a couple of thought experiments - I'm not trying to catch you out, just to get an insight in what you'd do in these situations based on that comment above.

1. Your house is infested with rats. Do you call in the exterminator or learn to live with them?

2. A farmer is losing his crop to woodpigeons, an abundant species it is legal for him to kill. Should he do it?

3. There is a rare species of wader breeding on a Hebridean Island, and large amounts of time and money is being spent to protect it. Hedgehogs, a species that have never lived on the island, are accidentally brought on to the island, and proceed to eat the waders' eggs. Should they be killed?

4. Feral cats are introduced to a Pacific island by careless sailors. They proceed to kill all native small mammals, that exist nowhere else in the world, to the point where they're on the verge of extinction. Should the cats be killed?

5. Mink are released from fur farms by animal rights activists. They establish in British rivers. They lead to further stress on water vole populations, already under pressure from habitat loss. Should the mink be left to finish them off?
 
Come on, Arnie, the suspense is killing me|=)|

(Pete asked me these questions a few years ago, but unfortunately I didn't save the answers; so I'm afraid I can't help)

;)
 
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birdboybowley said:
But then using your own logic, is not the world population of Mandarin in more danger than Tawny Owl, Goldeneye or Stock Dove? I'm sure I read somewhere that the numbers in Britain are almost equal to the remaining world pop so surely our 'non-native' birds are more important - talking on a global scale
Click to expand...

Adam,
Like many other examples in conservation, the UK Ruddy Duck status has fluctuated; you are both right and wrong about Mandarin numbers in UK. About eight years ago (I think), surveys of Mandarin in China found populations at least an order of magnitude greater than had been known before (That's the wrong bit), but almost all of them were in valley systems due to be flooded once dams currently under construction had been completed and filled, thus destroying the breeding habitat (That's the right bit). Perhaps OBC (or Ma Ming) could advise on the latest understanding.

On Ruddy Duck, when in the 1990s I did a year-long literature study plus obtaining responses of current status of this and all other Eurasian waterbird species from over 80 countries, two interesting points emerged. First, free-flying Ruddy Ducks in Europe had developed migration strategies, many wintering in Italy. Second, the most distant record of Ruddy Duck obtained was from Ukraine: this was assessed (on time of year and behaviour) as a migrant individual.

Granted, this is circumstantial evidence. However, during that period, in France and in Spain, Ruddy Ducks were culled. I understand that over several years, over 100 Ruddy Ducks, including crosses and back-crosses, were culled in Spain. White-headed Duck numbers in Spain were assessed as stable or declining at that time, but now have increased, making them easier for birders to find. White-headed Duck eggs from Pensthorpe were flown out to Spain to be placed in nests containing eggs of similar laying date.

The French and Spanish organisations managing the cull were fairly exasperated at the lack of action by UK at the time. It now appears that the current UK action isn't paralleled by current action in France and Spain; I would guess they had to give up because their bean-counters used the earlier UK inaction as justification for withdrawing funding.
MJB
 
Jan-Paul Charteris said:
Nitpicking, but invasive is more Collared Dove and Cattle Egret, introduced is the contention. Where would we draw the line though? Little Owl, Canada Goose, Greylag and Barnacle Geese, Pheasant, Red-legged Partridge etc are all introduced. To justify wiping out Mandarins and not those, there'd have to be some evidense that they will cause damage, and that the numbers are low enough compared to the others that there will be a successful 'eradication'. I'd imagine Ring-necked Parakeets more of a problem than Mandarin to be honest. As far as I've noticed mandarins terriorial behaviour is more on the water, or males chasing a female in flight. They'll take advantage of an empty nest hole, but not neccessarily compete for it. maybe they're just filling in a niche left as Stock Doves decline due to other reasons
Click to expand...

Yes perhaps i used the wrong word but I agree there would need to be at least some evidence to suggest they were causing a problem but as long as there is then personally I happily get rid of any of them.
I as far as i'm aware there isnt yet any evidence to say that Manadrins are a problem however there is some evidence against some of the species you mentioned so the laws have been changed to allowed Ring Necked Parakeets to be culled and also Canada geese to be culled all year round(as apposed to just the wildfowl season).
I dont see any need to automatically get rid of any non native species if they arent causing a problem but I'd always be inclined to err on the side of caution and get rid of any where its thought there may be a problem,prevention is better than cure especially if its too late for a cure.
 
MJB said:
It now appears that the current UK action isn't paralleled by current action in France and Spain; I would guess they had to give up because their bean-counters used the earlier UK inaction as justification for withdrawing funding.
MJB
Click to expand...

I would find it diffiucult to argue with any proposal for a general cull of bean-counters.

John
 
Adam W said:
don't see any need to automatically get rid of any non native species if they aren't causing a problem but I'd always be inclined to err on the side of caution and get rid of any where its thought there may be a problem; prevention is better than cure especially if it's too late for a cure.
Click to expand...

Adam,
There have been a number of recent large studies on the impact of introduced species (not just birds). A primary finding was that among introduced species that had not caused (or had not been known to cause) problems for indigenous species over many years, there was a disturbing tendency for a significant proportion of such 'harmless' introduced species to become invasive unexpectedly, most probably as a result of becoming better-adapted through generational mutations. That finding infers that greater effort at eradication would reduce the incidence of 'harmless' species adapting successfully to 'invasive' status.

On the other hand, placing indigenous species in circumstances where their adaptation is 'forced' can have unexpected benefits. For example, in eastern Germany after reunification, there were enormous numbers of highly acidic opencast pits (mostly south and east of Berlin). Politicians proposed importing huge volumes of alkaline soils to neutralise the acidity, but biologists managed to persuade them to hold off until it could be confirmed that indigenous plants could, by short-timescale evolutionary adaptation, begin to reclaim even highly-acidic areas. Briefly, individual plants more resistant to acid conditions than the bulk of their species would colonise tiny areas. These areas expanded in roughly circular fashion, but within the circles it was found that individual plants with lower acidity-resistance could flourish. It's likely that the proportion of highly-resistant plants first increased rapidly, reducing the soil acidity as they grew, allowing an increase in the proportion of less-resistant plants in the centre of the circles.

The two circumstances above are opposite sides of the same coin, in that unexpected changes can occur in species populations distributed in unfavourable ecological niches.
MJB
 
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I agree, I was just trying to be a bit open minded but like i said even the slightest hint of a problem and get rid but i think you still need at least that hint as i'm sure there will be some species that can be allowed here that wont cause any problem though i'm struggling to think of many,Little Owl perhaps?
As a general rule i'm all for not taking the chance and waiting to see if a problem develops,get rid of them and theres no chance of a problem.
 
This might well be a silly question with an obvious answer, but:

What about when a Species of Animal (unimportant whether Bird or Mammal etc; actually I guess it could even be a Plant or a Bacteria) starts to colonise an area completely naturally; no influence whatsoever by Man, just a fluke? And what if this Species has an adverse effect of the existing Flora/Fauna; is it still our "responsibility" to do something about it?
 
Whoops - I hadn't noticed that this one was on the list ?

Just as well that DEFRA aren't as fast as the top-league twitchers otherwise there really would be real trouble afoot ;)

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/factsheet/factsheet.cfm?speciesId=924

I know this thread is about the Ruddy Duck, but are we as enthusiastic I wonder (and as we ought to be) at removing the invasive plants that are causing habitat havoc or if I'm feeling a little bit devilish, is it because Japanese Knotweed or Himalayan Balsam and the like are less fun to shoot? ;)
 
Robin Edwards said:
I know this thread is about the Ruddy Duck, but are we as enthusiastic I wonder (and as we ought to be) at removing the invasive plants that are causing habitat havoc or if I'm feeling a little bit devilish, is it because Japanese Knotweed or Himalayan Balsam and the like are less fun to shoot? ;)
Click to expand...

At least here in Florida, USA, plants are a much bigger target for eradication than any introduced animal. Brazilian Pepper is an especially noxious weed, as it forms dense monocultures that preclude the growth of native plant communities. It is also extremely difficult to eradicate, as cutting it, burning it, and poisoning it are not effective. The only way it was eradicated in part of the Everglades NP was by scraping the topsoil down to the bedrock. Nasty stuff.

Carlos
 
ok pete...1 i keep my house clean so an "infestation" isnt likely and if there was 1 or 2 .so what they do no harm...2...pigeons eating crops??? thats called living isnt it..farmers arent know for animal kindness so they would shoot anything if i made them some money....3..pick hedgehogs up or trap and relocate(expesive prob but we waste billions) 4 cats going mental on some island ???tough 1 coz im not a cat fan ..they kill and dont eat ...like humans..ill pass on that 1 ..5mink should be left alone ..not nice but .. humans made the mess on the last 3 and killing more things to put it right seems daft to me...more to come no doubt
 
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