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Lateral Color Fringing (1 Viewer)

b3rd

Reg1stered User
After being very hopeful about the demo Maven 9x45 and 11x45 binoculars, I went out with them and noticed almost the same amount of lateral color fringing (chromatic aberration) with the Maven B2 that I did with the Celestron Trailseekers. Both of these binoculars have been very well reviewed (Maven B2) so this really surprised me.

This effect is especially noticeable in backlit conditions, or if I am looking at a white vertical edge of a building or something. There is a noticeable green fringe on the right hand side of the building and magenta on the left. Moving the binoculars around a bit, I can sometimes make these colors reverse, and on occasion I wouldn't see it, but it was hard to tell if my eyes were playing tricks on me.

I don't see this much at all on my Zeiss Terra ED Pocket binoculars.

Is this a difference in the optical quality between these binoculars? Is there something I am doing wrong looking through the larger ones? There was a lot to recommend about the Maven B2, but if I can't fix this issue I am going to have to send them back, and will be a bit at a loss on what to try next.

Any thoughts?
 
I see it in all my binoculars. Only thing that changes is how far from center before it shows up and the magnitude (which is a hair difference between my best and worst glass).

CG
 
Hi,

first of all - as you mentioned - the amount of fringing depends on the position of your eyes to the optical axis. So the first thing to do is to properly set up the bins so your pupils are centered inside the exit pupil. This could be done by measuring your IPD and setting the bins up for that or by trial and error - the latter obviously takes a bit more time and might be wrong.

When this is done, you might still see fringes in some situations and with certain bins but it will be rare.

Joachim
 
I've tried to adjust the IPD. I'm going to take them out again for another test drive to see what I can do. Could this have anything to do with the Zeiss Pocket exit pupil, which is 3.1/2.5mm vs. 5.0/4.1mm for the Mavens? I only ask because this is something I only see when the light is bright and my pupils might be closed down more.
 
Some opticians have tablets that set your spectacles' positioning prior to having glass fitted, that will measure your IPD.

I have found this useful to set my bins with an inexpensive sliding plastic caliper, sometimes found, in the UK, in pound stores.

It might be worth asking in an optician's store if they would measure your IPD.
 
I've tried to adjust the IPD. I'm going to take them out again for another test drive to see what I can do. Could this have anything to do with the Zeiss Pocket exit pupil, which is 3.1/2.5mm vs. 5.0/4.1mm for the Mavens? I only ask because this is something I only see when the light is bright and my pupils might be closed down more.

Hi
Joachim's advice is spot on. Most binos show some colour fringes (chromatic aberration) especially towards the edge of the field of view.

Binos are designed to be looked through the dead centre of the optical tubes and this is called the optical axis. Setting the distance between the eyepieces is therefore important. Measuring your IPD is one way to do it, another is to remember that the field of view should be perfectly round so if it is oval (ie narrow either side to side or narrow top to bottom) you need to adjust the binos until it is circular.

Bear in mind too that CA can be made worse if the binos are not fully focussed. The out of focus blur that affects the whole view also 'spreads' the CA a bit too and makes it look bigger than it really is.

Some people are very prone to noticeing CA and can hate it so much they don't enjoy binos that even have a hint of it near the edges of the fov. Lets hope you are not one of these, but if it turns out you are then binos like Zeiss's FLs (still available as 32mm) or Kowa's Genesis models are outstanding performers in this regard.

Lee
 
I don't think it is too much a trick to find proper IPD setting for a given distance just by looking through the bin and adjusting until it looks right. I'm guessing you do this fairly well, so I think you are probablymore aware or bothered by CA than some others. Troubador described the extreme of this sensitivity. The binocular models he references are especially low in CA. I think the Zeiss 8x42 and 10x42 HT should also be in that list. I don't have experience with the Maven bins, so I don't know how they compare to the fairly good performance of many of today's top bins. If they aren't especially good, you might find the performance of many top bins (e.g. Swarovski EL, Zeiss SF) to be superior.

--AP
 
I don't think it is too much a trick to find proper IPD setting for a given distance just by looking through the bin and adjusting until it looks right. I'm guessing you do this fairly well, so I think you are probablymore aware or bothered by CA than some others. Troubador described the extreme of this sensitivity. The binocular models he references are especially low in CA. I think the Zeiss 8x42 and 10x42 HT should also be in that list. I don't have experience with the Maven bins, so I don't know how they compare to the fairly good performance of many of today's top bins. If they aren't especially good, you might find the performance of many top bins (e.g. Swarovski EL, Zeiss SF) to be superior.

--AP
If I don't precisely set the IPD on my 10X50 SV my aging eyes will struggle to get consistently sharp, relatively CA-free views, regardless of distance. My IPD is 57mm so I close the bin and just slightly open it. This position, however, feels slightly restrictive and, in the past, I used a wider, more "comfortable" setting. Once I realized I was missing some detail I forced myself to adapt to a setting that aligned my pupils and eyeglass optical centers with the bin. Eyeglasses are a pain when using a bin and I'll bet a lot of criticism is the product of a poor interface between eyeglass and bins.

In any case, IPD settings are critical for my aging eyes.
 
Thanks everyone for the advice--as I said, I'm going to give these another try. I do think I tend to set the IPD 'comfortably wide' so I'm going to experiment some more with bringing them in a bit. I'll also grab a ruler of some sort and measure my IPD with a photograph. I did this for my wife once and it worked pretty well (to get glasses)--optometrists sometimes hide the IPD so that you order glasses through them.

If anyone knows about a binocular with an objective lens around 50mm and zoom in the 9-11x range with superb CA control I'd be interested to hear about it. Just in case I can't get these Mavens to work.

BTW build quality of these Maven B2s is great. I absolutely love the feel of the focus wheel.
 
If I don't precisely set the IPD on my 10X50 SV my aging eyes will struggle to get consistently sharp, relatively CA-free views, regardless of distance. My IPD is 57mm so I close the bin and just slightly open it. This position, however, feels slightly restrictive and, in the past, I used a wider, more "comfortable" setting. Once I realized I was missing some detail I forced myself to adapt to a setting that aligned my pupils and eyeglass optical centers with the bin. Eyeglasses are a pain when using a bin and I'll bet a lot of criticism is the product of a poor interface between eyeglass and bins.

In any case, IPD settings are critical for my aging eyes.

The SV may be more tricky than some others because its sharp-to-edge field makes for a pretty good view as long as the eye pupils are within the exit pupils. Still, if your eyes aren't centered, you should quickly notice strong and asymmetrical tendencies for black-out/vignetting as you look around the field to left and right of center. I usually error on the side of too narrow as a starting point IPD setting because it makes viewing at close distances better. I am curious what is more "comfortable" about a wide setting. Comfortable how, or for what? I always use glasses w/binoculars and although I'm thereby limited to models w/adequate eye-relief, on the other hand, I don't have to worry about how the eyecups fit to my eye sockets/brow/face, so I don't regard the combination as being all that bad.

--AP
 
I wanted to update this thread to say that I think I figured out the majority of my issue was adjusting the IPD. I looked at the image and I was seeing a 'wide' oval. Bringing it it in a touch vastly reduced the visible CA to a much more tolerable amount. The rest of it was coming in and out at a rate limited by how precisely I could line up my eyes down the center of the view.

So, the Mavens were pretty great. I'm going to spend some more time with my Celestrons to see if this is the culprit with them as well.
 
Excellent news. Slippage of the eyecups on spectacles, especially during panning to watch moving subjects, is something spectacle wearers need to watch out for. It can leave you looking through the bins off axis and wondering where the soft image and extra chromatic aberration has come from.

Lee
 
Hi
Joachim's advice is spot on. Most binos show some colour fringes (chromatic aberration) especially towards the edge of the field of view.

Binos are designed to be looked through the dead centre of the optical tubes and this is called the optical axis. Setting the distance between the eyepieces is therefore important. Measuring your IPD is one way to do it, another is to remember that the field of view should be perfectly round so if it is oval (ie narrow either side to side or narrow top to bottom) you need to adjust the binos until it is circular.

Bear in mind too that CA can be made worse if the binos are not fully focussed. The out of focus blur that affects the whole view also 'spreads' the CA a bit too and makes it look bigger than it really is.

Some people are very prone to noticeing CA and can hate it so much they don't enjoy binos that even have a hint of it near the edges of the fov. Lets hope you are not one of these, but if it turns out you are then binos like Zeiss's FLs (still available as 32mm) or Kowa's Genesis models are outstanding performers in this regard.

Lee

This thread isn’t very long but it’s already shown me the 2nd edition of BINOCULARS: ... needs to give more space to the discussion of aberrations. Here, I would like to address the thread as a whole. I will start with a bold statement followed with a few particulars. Cutting to the chase by nature, I’m often taken as being mean spirited. I assure all that is NOT my intention. I just believe getting to the punchline in short order, on certain subjects, is the best thing for all concerned.

Although the thread can create valuable camaraderie and nudge some observers into bettering their view of nature, overall, participating in it, is as productive as rearranging deck chairs on Titanic. Unless one has the power to change physics, nothing short of buying a better binocular is going to solve the problem of chromatic aberration. You may roll it around the field and the super-thoughtful and kind are remaining with those chairs to instill a touch of hope in those who are about to drown in depths of optical realities. But, that leads to considerably more flutter than flight, as it has since bino forums came into being.

Hopefully, all observers want a better view. Many, however, are not willing to do what getting to that view will take. And, if I didn’t have some fine binoculars around the house, I wouldn’t miss the boat because of WON’T but because of CAN’T. For some, it’s a matter of casual priority. For me, it would be a matter of essential priority—3 month’s groceries are simply more important to my wife and me than a new Swarovski. Also, I would love to have 100 copies of my book to sell at birding events and star parties. But, until I get my first royalty check next month, that’s not a happening thing. Thus, I understand, completely.

So, What Are the Options:

1) Install blue blocking filters somewhere along the optical path—full-aperture filters would be easiest. Just the thought of that, however, may reduce “effective aperture” enough to drive some nitnoids to distraction. And it should be understood—although it never has been—that aberrations do not exist independently. In reducing one to a tolerable amount, you may have to increase two others by a tremendous mount. Only the armchair opticians and engineers can pull off any better. The engineers at Zeiss, Leica, and Swarovski don't have the luxury of living in the make believe world that haunts so many binocular forums.

2) Buy a new binocular—one you have personally checked for chromatic aberration before putting your money on the counter.

3) Realize that the “perfect” binocular does not exist, those even getting close are cost prohibitive, and your real hobby is about BIRDS and not BINOCULARS.

Lee said: “Binos are designed to be looked through the dead centre of the optical tubes ...”

Unlike a couple I have encountered on BF in the last few days, I feel I can trust my friend Lee to understand my motivation as I take it upon myself to temper his comment. It speaks to the SPIRIT of the matter, but not to the LETTER.

“Binos are designed in such a way as to offer the most aberration-free image when the observer has his or her eyes positioned exactly in the middle of each exit pupil, with the eyepieces—and therefore those exit pupils—positioned at the observers exact IPD. On the best models, aberrations are seldom bothersome.”

There has been a great deal of talk about the observer doing just that. But, what is great in theory may not work at all in practice. Even, if the instrument were surgically implanted on the observer’s head, there would still be too much variance in alignment to eliminate all chromatic aberration. Even by those new to observing, CA can be measured. Even if not quantifiably by micrometrics, an observer could determine, by qualitative means, what level of CA he or she could tolerate in a binocular."


The good news:

We have the ability to make a bino that is relatively free of annoying aberrations, including CA. More elements, aspheric elements, and exotic and expensive glass types make it so.

The bad news:

As optical engineering now exists, only the very wealthy could afford such a specimen. And certainly, optical companies are not going to invest in a technology that is financially doomed from the start.

More good news:

The BBC reports that Amereican scientists have some up with an array of electronic sensors that may make conventional lenses obsolete. And with that technology, I expect aberrations to largely become relics of the past, as these arrays are smaller than the sensors on the back of our retinae.

Impossible?

It is also impossible for all the books in a large metropolitan library—complete with color graphics—to fit on a wafer the size of your little fingernail crammed inside a piece of plastic the size of your little finger. But, we use them every day.

“There was a demon in memory. They said whoever challenged him would lose. Their programs would lock up, their machines would crash, and all their data would disintegrate.

"The demon lived at the hexadecimal memory address A0000, 655,360 in decimal, beyond which no more memory could be allocated. He lived behind a barrier beyond which they said no program could ever pass. They called it the 640 K barrier.” — with my apologies to The Right Stuff…
:cat:

Back in my hole, now.

Bill
 
Last edited:
There has been a great deal of talk about the observer doing just that. But, what is great in theory may not work at all in practice. Even, if the instrument were surgically implanted on the observer’s head, there would still be too much variance in alignment to eliminate all chromatic aberration. Even by those new to observing, CA can be measured. Even if not quantifiably by micrometrics, an observer could determine, by qualitative means, what level of CA he or she could tolerate in a binocular."[/I]

Coming to the issue of CA pretty naturally, I do think there may be an element of skill as well as perception--at least to someone without a lot of muscle memory and practice placing binoculars into the viewing position. I find it takes me a second or so to get myself situated in a way that reduces CA to the imperceptible--at least with the quality of optics I've seen in the Maven. Perhaps others have larger 'sweet spots'.

I can't really say personally where they line up with the state of the art in terms of how fussy they might be vs. the 'best'. I would like to try some of the alphas out in 'real' conditions to see if the difference is noticeable for me or not.

My objective in seeking out higher quality glass is really that I very much enjoy the quality of the image in those moments one captures while birding. There's the ID and more technical aspects, but that is less important. Its that moment you might see a blue heron do something magnificent backlit by a pink twilight sky that I really enjoy being immersed in, and if quality glass helps me immerse myself in that, its probably going to be worth it to me.

And I'll admin guilt in some level of gear-wankery. Enjoying the nature of craft and quality itself in an engineered product. I suppose I place a value in that as well, although I would be ashamed to actually change my spending habits based on it.

British scientists have some up with an electronic array of sensors that may make conventional lenses obsolete. And with that technology, I expect aberrations to largely become relics of the past, as these arrays are smaller than the sensors on the back of our retinae.

I'd be interested in a link to more specifics if you have it. I'll say that I am suspicious of it for the following reasons:
  • Although sensors are getting better, they really haven't been able to capture the dynamic range needed to match what can be percieved by the eye. The eye is really good at processing wide differences in light levels, similar to what one might see on a logarithmic measure of light vs. linear. Most sensors at the lowest level are linear, since the solid physics needed to achieve logarithmic amplification (probably) introduces too much variability between sensing points. That said, cameras' digital sensors are getting better each year.
  • A similar concern on the other end--display. Monitors are not particularly good either at accurately displaying the level of contrast the eye can percieve, at all light levels/conditions. We've seen some, but less improvement in display tech.
  • The sensitivity of the eye is kinda nuts. I remember hearing in a neuroscience lecture that the eye was capable of perceiving a single quanta of light with statistical signficance given enough trials. (Meaning there was a lot of alpha/beta error, but you could separate the events with ANOVA or similar techniques to prove that the eye was indeed responding)
 
Coming to the issue of CA pretty naturally, I do think there may be an element of skill as well as perception--at least to someone without a lot of muscle memory and practice placing binoculars into the viewing position. I find it takes me a second or so to get myself situated in a way that reduces CA to the imperceptible--at least with the quality of optics I've seen in the Maven. Perhaps others have larger 'sweet spots'.

I can't really say personally where they line up with the state of the art in terms of how fussy they might be vs. the 'best'. I would like to try some of the alphas out in 'real' conditions to see if the difference is noticeable for me or not.

My objective in seeking out higher quality glass is really that I very much enjoy the quality of the image in those moments one captures while birding. There's the ID and more technical aspects, but that is less important. Its that moment you might see a blue heron do something magnificent backlit by a pink twilight sky that I really enjoy being immersed in, and if quality glass helps me immerse myself in that, its probably going to be worth it to me.

And I'll admin guilt in some level of gear-wankery. Enjoying the nature of craft and quality itself in an engineered product. I suppose I place a value in that as well, although I would be ashamed to actually change my spending habits based on it.



I'd be interested in a link to more specifics if you have it. I'll say that I am suspicious of it for the following reasons:
  • Although sensors are getting better, they really haven't been able to capture the dynamic range needed to match what can be percieved by the eye. The eye is really good at processing wide differences in light levels, similar to what one might see on a logarithmic measure of light vs. linear. Most sensors at the lowest level are linear, since the solid physics needed to achieve logarithmic amplification (probably) introduces too much variability between sensing points. That said, cameras' digital sensors are getting better each year.
  • A similar concern on the other end--display. Monitors are not particularly good either at accurately displaying the level of contrast the eye can percieve, at all light levels/conditions. We've seen some, but less improvement in display tech.
  • The sensitivity of the eye is kinda nuts. I remember hearing in a neuroscience lecture that the eye was capable of perceiving a single quanta of light with statistical signficance given enough trials. (Meaning there was a lot of alpha/beta error, but you could separate the events with ANOVA or similar techniques to prove that the eye was indeed responding)


On your last point: I had the link on the desktop of my Mac—and in my face—each time I went to go to one of the links stored there. But, at the suggestion of a computer geek, I deleted all my history to correct a problem I was having and the link—at least in THAT POSITION—disappeared! I feel confident I saved it somewhere OFF the desktop. Believe me, I’ll be looking for it because I need the information for myself. :cat:

Bill
 
It is amazing what can be done with thin films. It looks like a few different lines of research may be coming together to revolutionize optics.
 
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