• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Pheromones - Worth it and how to use? (1 Viewer)

Denis

Gwent Wildlife Trust
...Not for me personally you understand - I have this 'friend' who wants to become more attractive!

Seriously, I'm wondering if it's worth having a go with pheremones (moths) next year and believe I need to place an order soon. I'm curious to understand how they are used and how successful I might be with them. I appreciate this could be one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions so sorry if it is another dumb one.

Thanks

Denis
 
I cannot speak for how they work with moths but I recently moved and dog pheromones have helped my confused pooch a great deal. Darned expensive though.
 
Denis said:
...Not for me personally you understand - I have this 'friend' who wants to become more attractive!

Seriously, I'm wondering if it's worth having a go with pheremones (moths) next year and believe I need to place an order soon. I'm curious to understand how they are used and how successful I might be with them. I appreciate this could be one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions so sorry if it is another dumb one.

Thanks

Denis

My profoundly inexperienced understanding of pheromones is that they're species-specific and monosexual. So, whilst they might catch a lot of males of the particular moth you're after, that's the only moth you'll get. Basically it's "woman scent", so the boys turn up =)

Regards,

Johan
 
Denis said:
...Not for me personally you understand - I have this 'friend' who wants to become more attractive!

Seriously, I'm wondering if it's worth having a go with pheremones (moths) next year and believe I need to place an order soon. I'm curious to understand how they are used and how successful I might be with them. I appreciate this could be one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions so sorry if it is another dumb one.
Thanks
Denis

Hello Denis,
I take it you are referring to the Clearwing Moth pheremones. They do work, but, the moths have to be in the vicinity where you use them. They come as a piece or rubber or similar substance, with the pheremone impregnated in it.

They must be stored in a deep freezer between uses, this prolongs their life and they will last several years if stored that way. I keep each of mine in a small net bag, these were salvaged from my washing machine, they originally contained a soluble tablet of washing powder. I tie the bag to a clothes peg with a few inches of string. Keep each pheremine block in a separate airtight food container (available from most Supermarkets for 50p or so). Whatever you do don't store them together or the pheremone scents will contaminate each other.

I usually just clip the clothespeg to a convenient twig and let the air temperature warm them up to release the pheremone. If you are using more than one on any site, separate them by a few yards so the plumes of scent do not cross each other until well downwind.

Despite them being supposedly species specific, they do not always work. A friend of mine tried the Thrift Clearwing pheremone out, on the north Wales coast and he had dozens of specimens respond. Unfortunately I have had very little time to try mine out this year, and there are not many Clearwing species this far north.

It's always worth giving them a try as clearwings are difficult to find by any other methos in the adult stage.

Harry
 
Denis said:
...Not for me personally you understand - I have this 'friend' who wants to become more attractive!

Seriously, I'm wondering if it's worth having a go with pheremones (moths) next year and believe I need to place an order soon. I'm curious to understand how they are used and how successful I might be with them. I appreciate this could be one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions so sorry if it is another dumb one.

Thanks

Denis

Following Harry's reply, the fact that you don't mention clearwings makes me wonder whether it was known that these are for clearwings and clearwings only? There aren't pheromones available for any other group - a few pest tortix species apart. For clearwings, it's the best way to see these beautiful insects, but as Harry says, it can be very hit and miss, and not something I'd invest time or money on as a beginner (apols if this doesn't apply to you or your friend and this is like teaching grandma to suck eggs) - better to find someone who's being doing it for a while and see how they get on. National Moth Day/Night next June could be an opportunity perhaps.

Mike
 
Hi guys,

Sorry for the delay in responding and thanks for all the suggestions.

One piece of good news from me is that we've made contact with our county recorder and he lives not five miles from us - and very, very close to our local pub which is even better!

On balance, I think we will try using clearwing lures next year now I understand what's involved in using them - especially so as we seem to have found some potential local
help.

As always, I'll let you all know how we get on.
 
MikeWall said:
...There aren't pheromones available for any other group - a few pest tortix species apart....

Mike

Just a quick note - I'm sure Mike meant to say this... that yes there are actually some pheromones around other than clearwing although they're the ones that seem to be being 'pushed' at the moment. Ie:

Code:
Acrolepia assectella	Leek Moth
Adoxophyes orana	Summer Fruit Tortrix
Agrotis ipsilon	Black Cutworm
Agrotis segetum	Turnip Moth
Anarsia lineatella	Peach Twig Borer
Archips podana	Fruit Tree Tortrix
Archips rosana	European Leaf Roller
Argyrotaenia pulchellana	Bell Moth
Autographa (Plusia) gamma	Silver Y Moth
Busseola fusca	Maize Stalk Borer
Cacoecimorpha pronubana	Carnation Tortrix Moth
Chilo suppressalis	Striped Rice Borer
Choristoneura fumiferana	Spruce Budworm
Chrysodeixis chalcites	Turkey Moth/
Clepsis spectrana	Cyclamen Moth
Cossus cossus	European Goat Moth
Cydia caryana	Hickory shuckworm
Cydia fagiglandana	
Cydia (Grapholitha)	Plum moth
funebrana	
Cydia molesta	Oriental Fruit Moth
Cydia nigricana	Pea Moth
Cydia (Laspeyresia)	Codling Moth
Pomonella	
Cydia spendana	
	
Earias insulana	Spiny Bollworm
Earias vitella	Spotted Bollworm
Endopiza viteana	Grape Berry Moth
Ephestia elutella	Tobacco/Cocoa Moth
Ephestia kuhniella	Mediterranean Flour
Moth	
Eupoecilla (Clysiana)	European Grape Berry
ambiguella	Moth
Euzophera bigella	
Evergestis forficalis	Garden Pebble Moth
	
Gortyna xanthenes	
Grapholitha molesta 	Oriental Fruit Moth
Gypsonoma aceriana	
Hedya dimidioalba	
Hedya nubiferana	Green Bud Moth
Helicoverpa (Heliothis)	
armigera	Old World Bollworm
Helicoverpa (Heliothis)	
virescens	Tobacco Budworm
Helicoverpa (Heliothis	
zea	Corn Earworm
Hormona magnanmoy	
Lacanobia oleracea                	Tomato Moth
Leucoptera scitella	Pear Leaf Blister Moth
Lobesia botrana	European Grape Vine Moth
Lymantria dispar	European Gypsy Moth
Lymantria monacha	Nun Moth
Malanotus okinawensis	
Mamestra brassica	Cabbage Armyworm
Mamestra configurata	Bertha Armyworm
Orgyia pseudotsugata	Douglas fir tussock moth
Orthosia stabilis	
Oryctes rhinoceros	
Ostrinia nubilalis	European Corn Borer
Pammene fafciana	
Pammene orgyrana	
Pammene rhediella	
Pandemis heparana	Apple Brown Tortrix
Panolis flammea	Pine Beauty Moth
Paralobesia viteana	Grapeberry Moth
Paranthrene tabaniformis	
Pectinophora gossypiella	Pink Bollworm
Phthorimaea operculella	Potato Tuberworm Moth
Phylloeniotis citrella	
Phyllonorycter blancardella	Spotted tentifor leafminer
Plodia interpunctella	Indian Meal Moth
Plutella xylostella	Diamond Back Moth
Portheria dispar	Gypsy Moth
Prays citri	Citrus Flower Moth
Prays oleae	Olive Moth
Pseudoplusia ni	
Quadraspidiotus perniciosus	
	
Rhynchophorus ferrugineus	Red Date Palm Weevil
Sesamia inferens	Purple Stem Borer
Sesamia nonagrioides	
Sitotroga cerealella	Angoumois Grain Moth
Spilonota ocellana	Eye Spotted Bud Moth
Spodoptera exempta	African Armyworm
Spodoptera exigua	Beet Armyworm
Spodoptera frugiperda	Fall Armyworm
Spodoptera littoralis	Egyptian Cotton Leafworm
Spodoptera litura	Tobacco Cutworm
Spodoptera sunia	
Synanthedon myopaeformis	Red Belted/or Apple
Clearwing Moth	
Synanthedon tipuliformis	Currant Clearwing Moth
Syndemis musculana	
Tecia (Scrobipalpopsis)	
solanivora	
Thaumetopoea pityocampa	Pine Processionary Moth
Thaumetopoea processionea	Processionary Moth
Trichoplusia ni	Cabbage Looper
Yponomeuta malinella	Apple Ermine Moth
Zeuzera pyrina	Leopard Moth

That's from http://oecos.co.uk/Pheromone.htm

I also find that if you give your favourite supplier a exact taxon type sometimes you'll get lucky and maybe they'll have what you want.

BUT bear in mind that the main use for these is the pest industry esp. in the USA, so they're the species that tend to be covered as its basically just not economical for them to go develop a pheromone for some really obscure taxon that about 10 people in the world are interested in...

regards,

Johan
 
......come to think of it, I wouldn't mind asking some of you experienced folks what trap you actually used with your pheromones?

Seems that the standard unitrap is what most people try and sell you, with the ones with the yellow top being more successful than the all-white or the foresty green ones. However, other research I've read suggests that the winged and delta types are very good too because they recognise the need for a landing area (besides being sticky), and then of course there's always the inverted funnel types and the double inverted funnel type and even the tropical butterfly trap type - what's worked for you guys who have used pheromones - what setup did you use???

Thanks in advance,

Johan
 
Last edited:
surreyjohan said:
Just a quick note - I'm sure Mike meant to say this... that yes there are actually some pheromones around other than clearwing although they're the ones that seem to be being 'pushed' at the moment. Ie:
Code:
<large snip>
That's from http://oecos.co.uk/Pheromone.htm

Err, I did say that! As I said in my original post, pheromones are available for a few pest species. If you look down that list, some 90% do not occur in the UK.

surreyjohan said:
I also find that if you give your favourite supplier a exact taxon type sometimes you'll get lucky and maybe they'll have what you want.

Not sure what you mean by this. If I go to my 'favourite supplier' (gives me a mental image of a shady character in a dark corner of a pub - "Wanna buy some black market moth scent, mister?") he's not going to magic up a pheromone for Oligia sp. or any other taxa that are an identification headache for us amateur moth-ers but not of any commercial or scientific value.
 
surreyjohan said:
......come to think of it, I wouldn't mind asking some of you experienced folks what trap you actually used with your pheromones?

For clearwings, a net, basically. Clearwings are far too active and unpredictable to depend on a 'trap'. The designs you mention I suspect are primarily for commercial pest control, and in the majority of cases (sticky being a clue!) aren't designed with the moth's interests at heart...
 
Most people I have spoken to who have used Pheremone lures for Clearwing moths have simply stood near the place where the lure is placed, watching for the insects to appear.

If you want a trap! then it's easy enough to make one at home. A square wooden frame about 9" square and perhaps 4" deep would do. The back could be made from perforated Aluminium or Zinc held in place with drawing pins. The front is made of two pieces of overlapping perspex or crystaglass with a gap between them suitable for the insect to enter.

To use simply place the pheremone lure inside, pin on the back cover, and position it with the back of the trap facing the wind, this blows through the perforated metal sheet and exits through the gap between the overlapping perspex sheets carrying the scent with it. Hopefully the male moth you are after detects the scent plume and flies upwind and into the trap.

Harry.
 
Yes Harry - that's more or less what I was thinking also, a trap really shouldn't be that hard to create at all. Granted, clearwings are active, but then so are many of the other taxons that I've caught in my banana trap, which whilst food-based, still operates on the same loose idea (moths being attracted to scent enter a trap which is designed in such a way that the exit is not as attractive as flying up, their natural tendency). But, I'll defer to Mike's better knowledge of these - I've never seen one, so maybe they're untrappable! In fact I'm going to make several of these pheromone traps in order to conduct some research of my own early next year - hopefully I'll be able to post a happy result here and on UKMoths as I'm trapping for a particular taxon.

Regarding Mike's points - Mea Culpa - it's clearly not what you meant to say. In that case allow me to correct you. In the list there I'm also seeing some others - specific taxons that some people might not have seen before, would like to see and would like to have a shot at using methods other than the standard methods such as sugaring, beating, mining and one of the many traps of a light-oriented variety. For example, the list there includes Turnip, Silver Y, Goat Moth, Gypsy Moth, various clearwings, Bright-Line Brown Eye, the totally stunning Leopard Moth... and that's just their published stuff. Your post says, word for word, "a few pest tortix species" - these are not tortrix species. Furthermore I have contacted them about a particular taxon, a noctuid, not on that list... and they had that too... so the pheromones are on the way and should arrive any day... hence my comment regarding contacting your favourite supplier. Maybe I'm just extraordinarily lucky - this taxon is neither a pest nor numerous (Jodia croceago). Given that I've tried one supplier for one taxon and been successful, I suspect there maybe others. But then maybe it's just extraordinary luck?

My interest in all this isn't just because of the pheromone angle - it's theorising about an efficient scent based trap of any form. First of all I made that banana trap (which is really just a glorified butterfly trap) - this is scent driven. I've since been in touch with several people all over the world, including several butterfly breeders in the US, and I'll be doing a much better model for myself next year. One key thing that has come through is that the landing area (ie "runway") is a vital thing - the bigger that is, the more enter... because it makes it easy for them to get to their scent and be trapped. Interesting enough, the delta and winged traps, besides being sticky as I'd mentioned - for those unfamiliar with that, this means there's a sticky substance on there which basically kills them, like the flypaper rolls we probably all remember from our youth - they also have a large landing area. Ie they recognise this point and utilise it to their advantage. So, I wondered if someone had done something brilliant along such lines for pheromones but which would allow live capture.

As an aside, personally I suspect there is more to it than just that. Ie these traps are usually made from netting - so the scent escapes not from a specific entrance that they crawl into to get at the goodies BUT from all over the trap (as scent goes through netting). This probably explains why I have a whole bunch of the little guys sitting on the outside rather than entering - and this is what I want to prevent with a pheromone trap. I'm also currently experimenting with Kairomone traps - again a scent based trap - which are the latest thing in the US. By using Kairomones combined with pheromones, researchers have found that they can attract both males and females. Hence, my interest in scent traps.

Upshot of all this is I guess I just love tinkering with experimental traps and new attractants!

Regards,

Johan


harry eales said:
Most people I have spoken to who have used Pheremone lures for Clearwing moths have simply stood near the place where the lure is placed, watching for the insects to appear.

If you want a trap! then it's easy enough to make one at home. A square wooden frame about 9" square and perhaps 4" deep would do. The back could be made from perforated Aluminium or Zinc held in place with drawing pins. The front is made of two pieces of overlapping perspex or crystaglass with a gap between them suitable for the insect to enter.

To use simply place the pheremone lure inside, pin on the back cover, and position it with the back of the trap facing the wind, this blows through the perforated metal sheet and exits through the gap between the overlapping perspex sheets carrying the scent with it. Hopefully the male moth you are after detects the scent plume and flies upwind and into the trap.

Harry.
 
Last edited:
Hello Johan,
This company you are dealing with, eerrmmm. they don't happen to have a pheromone that attracts female Homo sapiens, do they? Mine is not working as well as it used to.
Lol.
Harry
 
surreyjohan said:
Yes Harry - that's more or less what I was thinking also, a trap really shouldn't be that hard to create at all. Granted, clearwings are active, but then so are many of the other taxons that I've caught in my banana trap, which whilst food-based, still operates on the same loose idea (moths being attracted to scent enter a trap which is designed in such a way that the exit is not as attractive as flying up, their natural tendency). But, I'll defer to Mike's better knowledge of these - I've never seen one, so maybe they're untrappable! In fact I'm going to make several of these pheromone traps in order to conduct some research of my own early next year - hopefully I'll be able to post a happy result here and on UKMoths as I'm trapping for a particular taxon.

I wouldn't say they're untrappable, and if you want to build a trap it'd be interesting to see whether it works - given your postings on ukmoths it's obvious this is something you spend a lot of time thinking about.

surreyjohan said:
Regarding Mike's points - Mea Culpa - it's clearly not what you meant to say. In that case allow me to correct you. In the list there I'm also seeing some others - specific taxons that some people might not have seen before, would like to see and would like to have a shot at using methods other than the standard methods such as sugaring, beating, mining and one of the many traps of a light-oriented variety. For example, the list there includes Turnip, Silver Y, Goat Moth, Gypsy Moth, various clearwings, Bright-Line Brown Eye, the totally stunning Leopard Moth... and that's just their published stuff. Your post says, word for word, "a few pest tortix species" - these are not tortrix species. Furthermore I have contacted them about a particular taxon, a noctuid, not on that list... and they had that too... so the pheromones are on the way and should arrive any day... hence my comment regarding contacting your favourite supplier. Maybe I'm just extraordinarily lucky - this taxon is neither a pest nor numerous (Jodia croceago). Given that I've tried one supplier for one taxon and been successful, I suspect there maybe others. But then maybe it's just extraordinary luck?

Sorry you took me so literally, must remember to be more specific in future. Apart from tortricids, species like Turnip, Silver Y and Bright-line Brown-eye are noctuid pests (and easily seen at light anyway). Goat and Leopard Moths can damage fruit trees (as can clearwings), so the basis of my comment stands. I admit to being surprised that pheromones for species like Jodia croceago are available, but in this instance I fear you're wasting your time and money: it's 99.9% certain that Orange Upperwing is is extinct in Britain!

Mike
 
I think it's worth it, i've read some good reviews and have some very solid feed back myself. There is always the issue of it's use being ethical or not though
Colin Key, residing in the Algarve, is without doubt the most vile creature to inhabit birding and photography sites on the internet.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 16 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top