the foot bath (1 Viewer)

Strandman · Sep 17, 2007

timwootton said:
Beth - thought I'd best reply on this 'anatomy' thread.
I'm not au fait with the specific problems you 3-D ers suffer regarding balancing birds, but I would have thought that to make a quick sketch of your model and then work out the balancing point as on the sketch sheet ought to help to find the right 'feel' for the bird.
The sketches show a very basic idea that if the mass of the bird can be simplified and a line drawn through the virtual centre - then the feet ought to be along that axis (although there are other issues which can get in the way of such a simple theory).
Comments anyone?

It's a good method..I couldn't resist sticking proper toes on the stinty thing following Dave B's comments and sure enough the feet are a bit too far forward on the bird. So second pic shows them taken back a bit with a red splot where (to my way of thinking) centre of body mass lies. This is on the basis that the rear third of a bird isn't really mass at all - all primaries and tail and no meat n bone.

ARTHUR BISHOP · Sep 17, 2007

Lovely drawings, but could it just be down to instinct. ie; does it look right and is the bird balanced.

timwootton · Sep 17, 2007

ARTHUR BISHOP said:
Lovely drawings, but could it just be down to instinct. ie; does it look right and is the bird balanced.

Absolutely, Arthur.

birdpotter · Sep 18, 2007

timwootton said:
Beth - thought I'd best reply on this 'anatomy' thread.
I'm not au fait with the specific problems you 3-D ers suffer regarding balancing birds, but I would have thought that to make a quick sketch of your model and then work out the balancing point as on the sketch sheet ought to help to find the right 'feel' for the bird.
The sketches show a very basic idea that if the mass of the bird can be simplified and a line drawn through the virtual centre - then the feet ought to be along that axis (although there are other issues which can get in the way of such a simple theory).
Comments anyone?

Excellent Tim. You've come through again for me.
I haven't even tried to create anything 3-D with this particular bird. I think I am working it out. At least, I think I am understanding the problem more, which will make the solution come to light soon. I think it is all about the way the Meadowlark sits on the power lines--his knees are below the line--it has been throwing me off for some reason. And now with this nice little rule you have put out there, Tim, well, I think my birds will improve greatly.
I like using a good bit of instinct and referring to sketches and photos while building my 3-D pieces. If I can add a technical rule it becomes a kind of checks and balance going on, then that makes it all the better. It can only mean improvement.
What are the other issues that could get in the way of this 'simple theory'?

timwootton · Sep 18, 2007

Well, for instance if the bird is being affected by a breeze blowing it - the bird will change the obvious point of balance to compensate. Another issue is that we ought not forget the integral relative strength of the feet and legs. Birds can and do get into infinitely variable positions whilst still 'balanced' - look at birds on feeders, or, particularly, birds stretching for blossoms or fruit . . .
The posted drawings are extremely simple (they'd have to be, I did them). Ilike your own approach -you've spotted a particular characteristic of the lark and the way it perches - make some prelim drawings on that observation - let's all have a look, too, eh?

Woody · Sep 19, 2007

I thought this might be relevant to the thread. I do tend to take advantage of road kills for a good close up look at details that it can be hard to see on the live bird. It's gruesome at times but often the feet or beaks survive being flattened and I think it's useful to make studies like these. It's also good to keep the old objective drawing muscles working now and then!

Woody

birdpotter · Sep 19, 2007

timwootton said:
Well, for instance if the bird is being affected by a breeze blowing it - the bird will change the obvious point of balance to compensate. Another issue is that we ought not forget the integral relative strength of the feet and legs. Birds can and do get into infinitely variable positions whilst still 'balanced' - look at birds on feeders, or, particularly, birds stretching for blossoms or fruit . . .
The posted drawings are extremely simple (they'd have to be, I did them). Ilike your own approach -you've spotted a particular characteristic of the lark and the way it perches - make some prelim drawings on that observation - let's all have a look, too, eh?

I think the point of balance is different than what I have dealt with before, which is strange because I have been successful with so many different 'poses'.
Anyway, I will do my best to post something after I work up a few prelims.
PS Nice sketches Woody...how often have you ever actually sought out road kill, or better yet, gotten excited about what was dead so that you may finally get a close look at a particular trait on a particular bird??

dryslwyn · Sep 19, 2007

Joy of joys- my friend Hilary brought me over a cat kill nicely wrapped up in plastic bags and a cooled with one of those blue freezer things (lost for words in my excitement) Trouble was I put it in the fridge forgetting to tell my daughter it was there. I think she was presuming it was something tasty to cook for tea when she opened it!
Anyway after many apologies I cut off and saved just a wing so finally I can see how it folds and how the feather patterns are formed :bounce:

birdpotter · Sep 19, 2007

dryslwyn said:
Joy of joys- my friend Hilary brought me over a cat kill nicely wrapped up in plastic bags and a cooled with one of those blue freezer things (lost for words in my excitement) Trouble was I put it in the fridge forgetting to tell my daughter it was there. I think she was presuming it was something tasty to cook for tea when she opened it!
Anyway after many apologies I cut off and saved just a wing so finally I can see how it folds and how the feather patterns are formed :bounce:

Excellent! Your issues with the way feathers fall/lay will be taken care of.

Dave B · Sep 23, 2007

Couldn't decide whether this one should go under the 'Dare you draw what you see' thread or this one.

Opted for the latter to ask Ed where the knee joint/point of balance is on this bird?! I imagine if you sculpted this there's no way you'd get it to stand upright!

Dave

timwootton · Sep 23, 2007

Great image Dave - where's the rest of it gone???!!!!

Strandman · Sep 23, 2007

Dave B said:
Couldn't decide whether this one should go under the 'Dare you draw what you see' thread or this one.

Opted for the latter to ask Ed where the knee joint/point of balance is on this bird?! I imagine if you sculpted this there's no way you'd get it to stand upright!

Dave

Good question! I think part of the answer lies in Tim's reminder a few posts above of the integral strength of birds legs and feet- to which list needs to be added the backbone. So that legs which are located apparently unfeasibly towards the rear can combine with the backbone to suspend the body in space- leaving it hanging like an old-fashioned pub-sign. This might be one of those rare opportunities to use the word cantilever..

Bitterns are an example when they do that trick of leaning and waiting with the tip of their beak in or just above surface of the water- they don't necessarily have a foot neatly positioned under a point of balance, but it's a position they can hold for ages. Here's an exploratory offering which come light of day I might find I want to delete..

Strandman · Oct 2, 2007

Hello all. It may be time to wash out the foot bath and put it away, but I thought before doing so I would do a quick animated gif. of the stint from up thread to see if its legs function properly. I've not attempted to stick a gif. on here before so if it doesn't work apologies in advance.

EDIT: I think it does, but you have to click on it to see the legs moving.

timwootton · Oct 2, 2007

It does - and brilliantly! Is there no end to your talents?
Actually, this is a really instructive animation and really well drawn - maybe the forerunner to the greatest Bird Identification Guide ever written? - Just needs a battery-powered led display (?) in the relevent 'pages' and away we go!

Strandman · Oct 2, 2007

timwootton said:
It does - and brilliantly! Is there no end to your talents?
Actually, this is a really instructive animation and really well drawn - maybe the forerunner to the greatest Bird Identification Guide ever written? - Just needs a battery-powered led display (?) in the relevent 'pages' and away we go!

Aha..the thing that surprised me (apart from it working at all) was how few frames you need- I initially did about 15 frames showing the movement of the legs (takes less time than you might think, as all are digicopied cut and warped from the original sketch) but discovered that having so many frames slowed the bird down to a bitternly pace. So I chopped most of them out and kept 5 key frames- the the human eye and brain does the rest of the work to join them up.

Dave B · Oct 3, 2007

ed keeble said:
Aha..the thing that surprised me (apart from it working at all) was how few frames you need- I initially did about 15 frames showing the movement of the legs (takes less time than you might think, as all are digicopied cut and warped from the original sketch) but discovered that having so many frames slowed the bird down to a bitternly pace. So I chopped most of them out and kept 5 key frames- the the human eye and brain does the rest of the work to join them up.

Tremendous! Bird Id meets YouTube!

Dave

birdpotter · Oct 3, 2007

Wow, nice Ed.
Let me add my sketches of my meadowlarks and their legs PLEASE before we forget about this thread.

Okay, so I seem to be having problems uploading my images. Size is good. I just uploaded a bunch on a different thread. I will come back and try later...

timwootton · Oct 3, 2007

birdpotter said:
Wow, nice Ed.
Let me add my sketches of my meadowlarks and their legs PLEASE before we forget about this thread....

I don't think this thread is going to go away. It's Dr Keeble's Monster and he no longer has any control over it . . . ..

Strandman · Oct 3, 2007

timwootton said:
I don't think this thread is going to go away. It's Dr Keeble's Monster and he no longer has any control over it . . . ..

Mornin all- what a nice response to tune into this morning.

Glad Frankenstint is liked. As mentioned above I can't get it to play fast enough-to be truly stinty there should be at least three pecks for each quick step. The last stints I has the pleasure of watching were feeding on bacteria, which explains the high peck rate.

The more stately one peck per step rythmn is better suited to a Bar-tailed Godwit- so next little project is hopefully going to be a nice stately orange BTGwt tuggin' out a worm.

Birdpotter- Meadowlarks awaited!

nickderry · Oct 3, 2007

this stint îs hypnotic, very entertaining and informative, looking forward to the barwit!

the foot bath (1 Viewer)

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