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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Contracted-out Manufacturing vs Do it All In-house (1 Viewer)

Troubador

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The subject of contracted-out manufacturing (COM) has received a lively discussion on Bird Forum for quite a few years now, with views sometimes polarising into a face-off between the classic situation where bins are designed and manufactured in-house and the simplest version of COM which is the ticking of boxes on an order form with the last two being ‘new armour’ and ‘our logo’ and which has come to be known as re-branding.

I actually think that this black and white concept of the manufacturing choices conceals the true situation which is more shades of grey between these two extremes.

Let’s take look at the classic ‘do it all in-house’ concept. Did this ever really exist? Isn’t this a slightly skewed vision when brands such as Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski have always bought-in eyecups, focus wheels, rubber armour, the machined components of focusing mechanisms, the aluminium or magnesium body blanks and even the glass/lens and prism blanks. And yes some brands are fortunate to have glass-making companies within their groups but don’t imagine for one moment they get special prices: the glass-making companies have their own financial targets to meet. Moreover it is normal practice for the external design of the bins, the look and style of them (which can affect handling, let’s not forget), to be farmed out to an external industrial designer. Swarovski’s EL was designed this way and most current Zeisses have been styled by KISKA.

So the classic ‘in-house’ method was never as pure as it might have been, nor was it free from the ticking of boxes, something that has attracted scorn from some quarters. For example, for years product development personnel at Zeiss have been ticking boxes (or the equivalent of this) marked T* coating, Lotu-tec Coating, Phase Coating, Dielectric Coating, Same old Black Cordura Case, Same old Neck-strap and of course Leica and Swarovski have been ticking their equivalents and in recent times Leica ticked High Transmission Glass and Swarovski a few years before had ticked Field Flattener.

For sure at some point during the life of Zeiss FL binos, someone at Zeiss ticked High Transmission Glass, totally revised appearance and different handling when it came time to make decisions about HT. Brands that employ COM can make these choices too and we know from Pete Gamby that they do this and more, but when these investments in the capabilities of the bins are made by these brands this is seen by some as not being as noble as when the big three brands do it. Now, if a brand ticks a box that says Model A1 and it comes with all the choices made about glass, coatings, image quality etc. etc. and they just put their own armour and logo on, then I think this qualifies as rebranding. But if they hunt through the options and choose the right quality of glass and coatings and body material etc. etc. for the price and performance points they are aiming at then this is getting close, in my opinion, to what classic brands do.

Let’s take another example. Ever since I joined Bird Forum some more experienced members than me have regularly commented that Leica has been producing basically the same bins for years, just tweaked here or there, and launched with new armour and a new name all the way from Trinovid BA to Ultravid HD+. Now these are all fine instruments and the BA/BNs are iconic of a certain era of birding, but if this assessment is accurate, isn’t this simply in-house re-branding? And along the way wouldn’t a cynic say that all that happened was that the following boxes were ticked: shorter minimum focus, reduce weight, new armour, add high transmission glass. Let me be clear that I don’t mean this as some sort of criticism in the slightest (Troubadoris has two Leicas including an Ultravid) but it does actually parallel some of the practices that surely occur in COM.

Summing up, my point is that classic manufacturing doesn’t differ from COM as much as might be thought and COM can involve just as many choices about technical excellence and product quality as classic manufacturing.

Lee
 
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Lee,

I don't need to put your point under a microscope (or through a resolution test :) to see less sharpness than might be imagined! :brains: Globalized manufacturing is sooo 20th Century! In fact it can traced back right through the industrial revolution to the earliest most rudimentary forms of trade.

What separates the Alphas from the COM-hithers and the Johnny-COM-latelys is that the Alphas are the innovators who bring designs to market where no box exists to tick. :eek!:

Anything else is mere apologism at best, to snake oil marketing (labels and pictures of dead animals) at worst. :cat:

Various forms and levels of collaboration take place among some of the newer entrants (or even not so new, such as Swift, Bushnell etc), and independent manufacturers who may contract for a range of customers .... but please, let's not confuse true design, innovation, and financing of ongoing R&D and businesses, with mere 'specifying' .....


Chosun :gh:
 
Always good to hear from you CJ and you are right about major innovations coming from the established manufacturers but Kamakura has patents to its name and smaller innovations such as counter-clockwise threading of eyecups to avoid inadvertant unscewing when screwing the eyecups up to non-spectacle wearers position have emerged from this sector.

But thanks for your pungently expressed views as usual.

Lee
 
Very, very few optics manufacturers make everything in house. Meopta is one of them that actually grinds, cuts, polishes, and coats glass. S&B is another. The list is very, very small.
 
Very, very few optics manufacturers make everything in house. Meopta is one of them that actually grinds, cuts, polishes, and coats glass. S&B is another. The list is very, very small.

S&B = Schmidt & Bender?

Meopta is an interesting company and have great potential with their resources and experience.

Lee
 
What about the environmental issues when outsourcing production to countries that don't give a sh*t about what they are polluting the environment with or the working conditions for the staff. Those cheap bins might come at a higher price than expected, for your children.
 
What about the environmental issues when outsourcing production to countries that don't give a sh*t about what they are polluting the environment with or the working conditions for the staff. Those cheap bins might come at a higher price than expected, for your children.

That is an excellent question VB and one that should concern us all. If I had an answer to this I could stand for election in the United Nations. I guess there needs to be a balance struck between industrial growth that lifts the country and its people out of poverty and environmental controls. Growth is needed to not only provide incomes that can pay for food, water and shelter but also for a country to improve education so that the people themselves learn the need to care for their own environment and that of the entire planet.

When this happens the cheap prices don't stay cheap but increase as happened in Japan and is starting to happen in China.

It is an easy question to ask and a vital one too, but it is not easy to answer.

Lee
 
What about the environmental issues when outsourcing production to countries that don't give a sh*t about what they are polluting the environment with or the working conditions for the staff. Those cheap bins might come at a higher price than expected, for your children.

This is why several American dogs have died from bad Chinese dog food and why melamine powder has been found in Chinese baby formulae.
 
...why melamine powder has been found in Chinese baby formulae.
Which Chinese consumers themselves were well aware of, leading to a huge demand for product from suppliers considered safe and clean - which is why, for a while, you couldn't buy infant forumua in Australian supermarkets because it had been bought in bulk to sell to China via the 'Daigou' market. That seemed to stop in a big destabilising hurry when the Chinese government instituted some kind of clamp-down - but may be about to re-start if, as has been talked about in the last few days, the clamp-down is relaxed.

It can be rather fraught doing business with China! Their government processes can be, shall we say, opaque at times and they seldom telegraph (or explain) their policy changes.

I imagine this kind of thing exercises the minds of those dealing with Chinese business partners as suppliers, not just those with Chinese customers. Optics companies likely included. (It's probably not a lot of fun for Chinese business, either, though I imagine it would be impolitic for them to say so.)

...Mike
 
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Very, very few optics manufacturers make everything in house. Meopta is one of them that actually grinds, cuts, polishes, and coats glass. S&B is another. The list is very, very small.

There are videos on Youtube of Leica and Zeiss grinding and polishing blanks (excluding budget models)
 
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There are videos on Youtube of Leica and Zeiss grinding and polishing blanks (excluding budget models)

Because they are grinding and polishing means only they are grinding and polishing. It does not mean they actually mixed and cooked the glass. It does not mean they didn't either I suppose ;)
 
Because they are grinding and polishing means only they are grinding and polishing. It does not mean they actually mixed and cooked the glass. It does not mean they didn't either I suppose ;)

In the case of Zeiss, Schott is part of the Zeiss Group, so it is an in-house operation...
 
When we talk numbers of in-house manufacturers we might be missing quite a few. It is feasible that Chinese manufacturers do enough in-house to qualify. They can design, source raw materials, FMC, end up with products well reviewed here (Yosemite, Raptor, Kowa, Savanaha, etc.), ship around the world, warranty well for a hundred bucks (one can estimate the bins are made for $20 at the door and delivered at $25 in another hemisphere, then another step to warranty), which is outstanding R&D of the total package. R&D included business development as a primary requirement. I marvel at what it says about $3000 binocular suppliers and the the R&D process that involves the customer.
 
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