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What's your technique when out with your DSLR camera? (1 Viewer)

Jpgs are fine and as Tannin points out, a "good" jpg will usually print up just as well as a converted RAW image. There is a cost to using RAW, although I've never lost an opportunity due to file digestion times. The added processing time becomes almost a non-issue once you are comfortable with a given RAW conversion program. I think it adds like 1-2 minutes to my post processing workflow.

The main reason I use RAW is because it provides 12 bits of data versus 8 bits in JPG/TIFF. If you always hit the exposure on the head, have a well lit subject and don't have dynamic range issues within your image, JPG will do the job very well. If, on the other hand, you have problems with one or more of these, RAW can really help.

Lost shadow and highlight detail can be extracted from a 12 bit RAW file. Usually at least 1 stop worth, minimum. You cannot extract ANY lost detail from an 8 bit JPG or TIFF. If your histogram overlaps either limit (or both limits), you have to live with it shooting JPG. Sure you can brighten dark areas and subdue bright areas, but you won't recover any detail within these areas.

I shoot lots of birds and I'll be the first to admit, there's no substitute for getting the proper exposure. Depending on a number of factors (time of day, light intensity, colors of your subject, etc) you can't always get every part of the subject well exposed. For example, shooting a scaup or other bird with white coloring along with very dark coloring. Unless the lighting and angle of light is perfect you will either blow out the whites, or under expose the darks. It doesn't have to be one or the other if you use RAW. You can blow out the whites, to a point, and recover most if not all of the detail. Yes, by lowering the whites it will also make the rest of the image darker. If this is the case, you can "blend" two different RAW conversions to expand the dynamic range of the shot (ie; darken the whites so detail shows in one conversion and brighten the shadows in a 2nd conversion) and capture maximum detail.

Is it easier to use JPG? You betcha. Can you shoot more pics using jpg before the buffer fills? Yes, you can. If you are shooting JPGs in mixed or harsh lighting, can you recover lost detail and/or expand the range of the image? No to the detail recovery and yes you can expand the dynamic range of a JPG, but only if you take 2 separate shots using different speeds (same aperture) and "blend". Not very practical for bird shooting.

I don't consider myself a snob and I would never try to tell people that they are wrong to use JPG. But, I do know a good thing when I see it/use it...lol All I can do is point out the advantages and leave it up to the individual to choose what is best for them.
I shoot around midday (lunchtime break) quite often and RAW has saved many images that would have otherwise ended up in the trash :) I haven't gotten to the point where I don't need the added margin of error that RAW provides me.

Steve
 
Ah - so RAW snob bad, jpeg snob good then?

Glad we've cleared that up.

;)

As Steve very eloquently suggests (though I admit I'm putting a personal "spin" on this), if you're such a brilliantly talented photographer that you never, ever get the initial shot more than slightly wrong, then yes, jpeg is fine (I say that - pretty much - in post 10).

For the rest of us, RAW allows so much more latitude in post processing that the slight notional downside implied by that format is a small price to pay.

And I'm speaking as someone with a steam-driven Win ME machine that can't even run many of the latest examples of RAW processing software.
 
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Keith Reeder said:
Ah - so RAW snob bad, jpeg snob good then?

Glad we've cleared that up.

;)

As Steve very eloquently suggests (though I admit I'm putting a personal "spin" on this), if you're such a brilliantly talented photographer that you never, ever get the initial shot more than slightly wrong, then yes, jpeg is fine (I say that - pretty much - in post 10).

For the rest of us, RAW allows so much more latitude in post processing that the slight notional downside implied by that format is a small price to pay.

And I'm speaking as someone with a steam-driven Win ME machine that can't even run many of the latest examples of RAW processing software.



Should we just take one step back in this discussion. Max's original question was, what is RAW.? Well I think that has been answered. The thread has now become an argument on whether or not to use RAW.

I have only been having a reasonable go at bird photography with a DSLR for about 6 months whereas I assume from the language used that other contributors are far more experienced and I feel at the moment that JPEG's are the best format to use. For years I photographed landscapes on slide film and in that environment I can see that RAW is the obvious way to go and thats what I'll be doing when I get to the Lake District in march.

For little birds flitting around in bushes the priority has to be getting the shot. My gallery has a collection of pictures which I am reasonably happy with. Yes I've got Great and Willow Tits with burnt out highlights but the pictures aren't too bad and have obviously been enjoyed by other people because they have left nice comments. The main thing is I am starting to build a collection of shots. Shooting RAW I am not sure I would have got those shots because of the slower frame rate and buffer size. Us beginners need to bang away and hope that something decent comes out. When we have learnt a few skills and are looking to improve on pictures we already have then RAW comes into the equation.

To try to prove the point I have attached a picture which was well reviewed in the gallery. If I had been shooting RAW I would not have got the shot because it is number 8 in a sequence taken as the Nuthatch continually moved. The shots before and after are no good so as I see it this was a one off opportunity and by shooting JPEG I got the result. I get the feeling I could wait till doomsday and not get that pose again. I know that the better photographers will say that the photo is technically poor, which I know it is- the original is nowhere near sharp, but at least I've got a reasonable shot of a good bird in a great pose thanks to JPEG
 

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Thanks for the replies everyone.This DSLR photography gets deeper and deeper every question I ask but great fun!!!!

Great pic of the Nuthatch Paul.Can you remember the camera settings.How close were you and was camera handheld?

Max.
 
I get the impression (and I could well be wrong) that birders who take photos tend to favour jpg, while photographers who take photos of birds tend to favour raw.

For the birder who wants a shot of a bird, every photo taken is worth it, an imperfect record shot is better than nothing - so they shoot jpg. For the photographer, the whole process of taking the shot is important - a technically good shot of a bird is what they're after, not a record shot - so they shoot raw.

Like I say I could well be wrong, it's jus a theory...
 
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senatore said:
Thanks for the replies everyone.This DSLR photography gets deeper and deeper every question I ask but great fun!!!!

Great pic of the Nuthatch Paul.Can you remember the camera settings.How close were you and was camera handheld?

Max.

Hi Max

Thanks for the comment. The camera settings, I think, were iso800, f5.6, speed 1/160. Distance is about 15 feet and the camera was on a beanbag on the car door.

Regards

Paul
 
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paul goode said:
Should we just take one step back in this discussion. Max's original question was, what is RAW? Well I think that has been answered. The thread has now become an argument on whether or not to use RAW.

Uuummm...

well yes, but not having started the argument, I'm not sure why my post has been quoted to make your point..!

In fact, does this ring a bell?

With regard to RAW, I wouldn't bother for a good while. JPEG large will give you perfectly good results and keep your post processing to a minimum. (Checkout Steve Youngs published shots in Outdoor Photography.)
Another downside of RAW is that the buffer will be much smaller and you could easily miss shots waiting for the buffer to clear.


;)

To be fair though, I don't think you can answer "what is RAW" without including something abut the whys and wherefores.

I can't see why anyone would get so bent out of shape about it that they'd actually start an argument about the benefits of one format over another though - it's just another option available to the photographer.
 
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Keith Reeder said:
Uuummm...

well yes, but not having started the argument, I'm not sure why my post has been quoted to make your point..!

In fact, does this ring a bell?

With regard to RAW, I wouldn't bother for a good while. JPEG large will give you perfectly good results and keep your post processing to a minimum. (Checkout Steve Youngs published shots in Outdoor Photography.)
Another downside of RAW is that the buffer will be much smaller and you could easily miss shots waiting for the buffer to clear.


;)

To be fair though, I don't think you can answer "what is RAW" without including something abut the whys and wherefores.

I can't see why anyone would get so bent out of shape about it that they'd actually start an argument about the benefits of one format over another though - it's just another option available to the photographer.

Hi Keith
OK point taken, I used the wrong post for my header.
And I added to the argument.
I'll crawl back under my flat stone.
 
postcardcv said:
I guess that a statement like that was always going to start the argument... ;)

Oh, I dunno why, Pete - it's true, after all.

Paul,

you do know I'm just having a bit of fun with you, don't you?

;) ;) ;)
 
Keith Reeder said:
Oh, I dunno why, Pete - it's true, after all.

Paul,

you do know I'm just having a bit of fun with you, don't you?

;) ;) ;)

Of course. Lifes too short to be any other way. :t:

A point you did raise I've been messing with this afternoon is how processing Raw files and using PSE 4 has really slowed the PC down.
When I bought this PC I assumed 512mB RAM would be enough but I get the feeling I've been proved wrong. Oh no, more expense!

Regards

Paul
 
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Crunching RAW files really is best done on a PC with plenty of "oomph" - my old PC takes its own sweet time of it (512mb as well) so I'm thinking of doubling up as well.

And putting Win XP on.

And upgrading the chip.

Which will mean a new motherboard..!

Mind you, I can honestly say that it's really just loading the file into Nikon Capture that really takes any more time than (say) PSP 9 - the actual processing I do in NC is just as quick, and in fact USM is a goodly bit quicker in NC than it is in PSP.

With apologies for the TLA Overload..!

;)
 
Hi guys it,s me again with yet another silly question.I took loads of shots yesterday and just to have a go I went over to RAW for a few shots and then back again to JPEG.How can I tell when I download to my PC which are the RAW shots.

Max.
 
senatore said:
Hi guys it,s me again with yet another silly question.I took loads of shots yesterday and just to have a go I went over to RAW for a few shots and then back again to JPEG.How can I tell when I download to my PC which are the RAW shots.

Max.

They'll have file extension called CR2 or something similar and a larger file size when you hover you're mouse-pointer over the file icon
 
If you view your files in windows software you won't be able to see the RAW files. You will need the conversion software to actually view them.

Matthew
 
postcardcv said:
I get the impression (and I could well be wrong) that birders who take photos tend to favour jpg, while photographers who take photos of birds tend to favour raw.

For the birder who wants a shot of a bird, every photo taken is worth it, an imperfect record shot is better than nothing - so they shoot jpg. For the photographer, the whole process of taking the shot is important - a technically good shot of a bird is what they're after, not a record shot - so they shoot raw.

Like I say I could well be wrong, it's jus a theory...

Excellent theory Postcard ^5 I think you may have hit the bullseye with it. After reading Paul's post, I can see that we are coming from two different directions.

I now understand that a birdwatcher might be satisfied with just about any pic of a bird. It captures the memory and if one is cataloging/documenting "birds spotted", I understand that any pic where the bird is identifiable would be precious. I also understand a bird shooter's desire to try to capture art with their images. Capturing proper exposures in good light, with nothing blocking/hiding the subject, good feather detail, sharp eyes, an interesting pose and good composition are paramount. There looks to be a big difference regarding what is acceptable, between these two groups. Neither is right or wrong, just different expectations and results, desired by people enjoying the same passion. Capturing these lovely creatures for posterity and for our own viewing pleasure.


I'm not sure that your theory holds true in all cases. But, I'm sure it does for the majority. Good call :)

That I didn't figure this out myself is sort of bothersome....lol Since this is my first bird forum that isn't primarily a photo forum. I plead temporary insanity.....LOL


Steve
 
Thanks for the info re. how to spot the pics taken in RAW.I spotted mine as they had the prefix CR.

I have downloaded a programme "RAW Essentials" so I can now have a go with my pics and I am wondering if you RAW guys have a set method of editing your RAW pics.

Max
 
senatore said:
Thanks for the info re. how to spot the pics taken in RAW.I spotted mine as they had the prefix CR.

I have downloaded a programme "RAW Essentials" so I can now have a go with my pics and I am wondering if you RAW guys have a set method of editing your RAW pics.

Max


Did the camera not come with Canon's DPP software? This seems a nice easy (and quick!) way to get RAW files processed to me - once you've got into them, that is (they don't seem to want to 'Open with' straight away, you have to open them from within the DPP programme itself)
 
Hi Max,

to be a RAW snob you need to call it your "workflow"..!

;)

This is what I do - obviously you're using different software, but it should give you an idea of how straightforward RAW really is:

I use Nikon View and Nikon Capture for my (ahem!) workflow - I review the pics in NV, then edit the ones that look OK in NC.

It's pretty quick and easy doing it like that, but a big part of why I use those two is that I'm still on Win Me: if I was running XP I'd probably use Rawshooter Essentials or somesuch.

In any event, my NC workflow is to crop the image as required, adjust the EV and contrast if necessary, Unsharp Mask (typically 20-30% intensity, 5% halo, 0 threshold) and then save to jpeg - personally I never change the original RAW file.

If it wasn't for the cropping - which needs my input - I could probably set up a batch process to apply the same settings to a whole folder of files with one click of a button (and indeed I could do that and crop last, he suddenly realises...)

;)

Any additional minor tweaking gets done with Photofiltre, a very useful little freeware application. To my mind if the picture can't be dealt with there (as opposed to the heavyweights on my PC like the Gimp or PSP 9) it probably wasn't worth keeping in the first place.


I've found that now I'm used to doing this, by far the most time-consuming part of the process is opening and then saving the image.

Easy-peasy.
 
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