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ID NEEDED, BIRD of PREY, DONANA, SPAIN. (1 Viewer)

In my books this a Black, possibly a young bird. Wings aren't long enough (they do appeared stretched to the limits) and have a diffuse window (ok maybe it's just the light...) and most important of all the tail: In Red it would show a fork regrdless of the hspe it is held in.

Cheers,

Dimitris
 
I would go for Red Kite (not 100% sure though).

I've only seen a few red kites but I've seen hundreds of Black Kites and I've never seen one with a tail like that.
 
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MKinHK said:
There's always one . . .

Please note this view is based on seeing many thousands of Black Kite and just a handful of views of Red Kite.

I think its a Red Kite - principally beacuse the wings (especially the hand) looks too long and narrow for Black Kite (which is usually rather more compact in its wing-shape).

According to "Flight Identification of European Raptors" both species have six primaries, so unless I'm hopelessly out of date (which I accept as a very real possibility) then this is not a diagnostic feature.

I also think that the tail is spread pretty wide in the act of turning, when the tail-fork can disappear, and that the vent looks to have too rufous a tone for Black Kite.

I also think that the had of this bird is plaer than I would expect fo most (but not all) Black Kites

Also perhaps a minor point, but based on seeing thousands of Black Kites in Hong Kong I often see the tail twisted out of alignment with the wings, but almost never the head.

Cheers

Mike
Click to expand...

I'm happy to agree 100% with Mike on this one. I too have seen thousands of Black Kite - only in Spain - and also many Red Kites there & in the UK. Although the angle is a bit tricky, to me this is certainly a Red, not Black, Kite. Like Mike, neither do I go with the simplistic 6 primaries = Black, 5 primaries = Red equation - particularly at an angle like this. No, this is a Red Kite,

John
 
John Cantelo said:
I'm happy to agree 100% with Mike on this one. I too have seen thousands of Black Kite - only in Spain - and also many Red Kites there & in the UK. Although the angle is a bit tricky, to me this is certainly a Red, not Black, Kite. Like Mike, neither do I go with the simplistic 6 primaries = Black, 5 primaries = Red equation - particularly at an angle like this. No, this is a Red Kite,

John
Click to expand...
hi john
im afraid i have to disagree with you and go with black kite because i can
see no hint of a fork tail which are noticable with reds in flight also
there is no white on the primeries.
 
Ian Hamiltan said:
hi john
im afraid i have to disagree with you and go with black kite because i can
see no hint of a fork tail which are noticable with reds in flight also
there is no white on the primeries.
Click to expand...

No problem, Ian. I never mind being proved wrong.

However, in this case the more I look the happier I am that it is Red Kite. I'd go so far as to suggest that it's probably a young bird .... isn't there a hint of a terminal tail bar on this bird? The colour of the tail & aft in in general says Red to me. Contra your comment I feel that at this angle some Red Kites (esp. younger birds) can seem to show no fork - I know as I've been fooled in the field by a seemingly unforked kite tail. See Peter Hayman's illustrations of a juv Red Kite in "The Complete Birdlife of Britain & Europe" to see how flat, even when not fanned, a Red Kite's tail can seem. As for the wing colour, I suspect there's a huge difference watching Red Kites in dull old UK with very little reflected light from the ground and doing so in SW Spain where underlit birds (of any species) can look far paler below than you'd imagine. I also think Steve West hit the nail on the head with his comment regarding wing structure.

Although various factors make this a less than straightforward ID, it just isn't a Black Kite to me - and I reckon I must have seen a couple of thousand Black Kite this year (and several thousand more the year before). It goes to show that, brilliant though it is to have photos so readily available, there are times when a few lines of notes go a long way! No, at risk of sounding unreasonable and boorish, this bird IS a Red Kite,

John
 
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I'm another in the Red Kite camp. In my experience wing lengths and proportions are the best ways of the separating the two at any range, and to me this one looks too long-winged and long-handed for Black Kite.

Stuart
 
I whole-heartedly agree with the last two comments - Red Kite, and prepared to bet on it (within reason!). Here in northeast Spain I see fairly similar numbers of both species at regular intervals (no Black Kites in winter of course) and as John says you have to bear in mind the lighting conditions (bright sun) and the angle of observation, as well as the fact that this is a photo and not a drawing. Perhaps you would like a test:
go to this page, click on raptor silhouettes and tell me which one corresponds to Black Kite and which one to Red Kite http://www.birdinginspain.com/free-birding-downloads.html

Happy birding!
Steve West
http://www.birdinginspain.com
 
flowing like a kite tail . . . .

I'm not surprised this discussion is continuing - I thought I'd add a little bit of graphical mathematics to the equation (excuse the pun).
I deal in foreshortening and perspective all of my working life - and it doesn't get any easier! Sometimes a ruler and pencil are needed . . .
I started by enlarging the photograph and making basic measurments of the salient area - the tail and 'hip'.
measurements are as follows:
'hip' width - 6mm (this in along the non-affected axis - ie foreshortening doesn't effect this calculation as it is virtually 'square' on).
outertail feathers - 10mm
innertail feathers - 6mm
Therefore outertail feathers are longer than inner tail feathers by a ratio of 10:6 units.
Draw a 'tail' in profile with outertail feathers 100mm long and inners 60mm long (10:6). Draw it in a box 100mm x 100mm. Here's the result . . .
 

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While John is happy to be proved wrong, I am delighted to be proved right! (by Tim's awesome use of maths - a totally foreign language to me). Paradoxically because I have been proved right John is also right too, but maybehe is happier being wrong after all!

(like he is about names of Iberian and Azure-winged Magpies - off topic I know, but I forgot where you made your suggestions about names for this pair! - lots more to say abut htis but probably not here)
 
Well having been in the position of 'leaning towards black' at the start of this thread, I can honestly say I'm now leaning towards Red to the point of having fallen over! Many thanks Mike and John for your expertise and input as usual.

(nice drawing Tim)
 
The point is - if you stretch a hand fan out to resemble the span of this bird's tail - then cut it off square (as this bird's tail seems to be) - when you then start to close the 'fan' it forms a fork - the closer it closes, the more it forks. No bird can have its tail spread this wide, create a 'square-end' appearance and not, in real-life, have a very forked tail under more 'normal' circumstances.
 
timwootton said:
The point is - if you stretch a hand fan out to resemble the span of this bird's tail - then cut it off square (as this bird's tail seems to be) - when you then start to close the 'fan' it forms a fork - the closer it closes, the more it forks. No bird can have its tail spread this wide, create a 'square-end' appearance and not, in real-life, have a very forked tail under more 'normal' circumstances.
Click to expand...

You're quite right Tim! It was that alone that led me to this definately being a Kite species initially rather than an eagle species! - my only concern re: relying on that feature alone is that juvenile/s.a Red Kites don't have such a forked tail - not sure about juvenile/s.a Black Kites - my initial impressions were this wasn't an adult bird. But again, perhaps it is and those impressions were wrong.
 
MKinHK said:
While John is happy to be proved wrong, I am delighted to be proved right! (by Tim's awesome use of maths - a totally foreign language to me). Paradoxically because I have been proved right John is also right too, but maybehe is happier being wrong after all!

(like he is about names of Iberian and Azure-winged Magpies - off topic I know, but I forgot where you made your suggestions about names for this pair! - lots more to say abut htis but probably not here)
Click to expand...

Whilst I'm happy to be proved wrong - it's all a learning experience - I'm much happier to be proved right! I too am in awe of Tim's mathematical talent. As for that magpie, perhaps we could start another thread ....

John
 
Yes you're right Deborah, but don't tell those still trying to identify all the species on the poster. So Red Kite sways, and thanks to all for an interesting debate.
 
steve west said:
Yes you're right Deborah, but don't tell those still trying to identify all the species on the poster. So Red Kite sways, and thanks to all for an interesting debate.
Click to expand...

lol ... will admit it was the shape/structure of primary fingers that gave it away :-O ) (along with wing shape)

got about 2/3 way through, struggling with distinguishing a couple of falcons at the mo. ;)
 
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timwootton said:
I'm not surprised this discussion is continuing - I thought I'd add a little bit of graphical mathematics to the equation (excuse the pun).
I deal in foreshortening and perspective all of my working life - and it doesn't get any easier! Sometimes a ruler and pencil are needed . . .
I started by enlarging the photograph and making basic measurments of the salient area - the tail and 'hip'.
measurements are as follows:
'hip' width - 6mm (this in along the non-affected axis - ie foreshortening doesn't effect this calculation as it is virtually 'square' on).
outertail feathers - 10mm
innertail feathers - 6mm
Therefore outertail feathers are longer than inner tail feathers by a ratio of 10:6 units.
Draw a 'tail' in profile with outertail feathers 100mm long and inners 60mm long (10:6). Draw it in a box 100mm x 100mm. Here's the result . . .
Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

my perspectively challenged brain is having a little trouble following the explanation. As I see it, the outer tail feathers and central tail feathers are not subject to the same degree of foreshortening and thus I wouldn't think could be measured in the manner in with you've done above.

To illustrate my thoughts, I constructed a virtual raptor with four rectrices. There are two central ones, and and two outer ones, with the tail being fanned. I then created a "hip" measurement equal to A, which happens to be the approximate value of each of the central rectrices measured in the two dimensional flat plane. The outer two rectrices measure out to 2.5 and 2.6 times A, again measured in the two dimensional plane. I then constructed a tail profile based on these measurements and came up with the highly forked tail seen in my crude drawing.

The only problem is in a three dimensional world, each of the four rectrices are exactly the same length (cut from the same sheet of paper). You can see from the blue lines that the distances between lines appear shorter on the central rectrices (the ones straight back from the camera lens), whereas the outer rectrices are not subjected to as much foreshortening because they are not pointed straight away from the observer and have more of a "width" component. Does this make any sense, or does it sound like utter nonsense?

Chris
 

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