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Mealy Redpoll West Mids (2 Viewers)

Dave,

Your forgetting Lee J's Photo clearly shows a Common (Mealy) don't you think? o:D
Or is this the 2nd bird ;)

looking at all the photos of this bird i still think there were 2 birds,lees bird is a different bird to the one seen when i was with you and steve the other day.
 
Seen the bird twice now since those original pic's and still sure its the same bird. Even more pic's on my website now. Finally got it up dated after yesterdays round of pic's
 
Seen the bird twice now since those original pic's and still sure its the same bird. Even more pic's on my website now. Finally got it up dated after yesterdays round of pic's


Hi Lee good to see you again yesterday mate.
Steve..............
 
Seen the bird twice now since those original pic's and still sure its the same bird. Even more pic's on my website now. Finally got it up dated after yesterdays round of pic's

Hi Lee,

about time ive had a link on here for your page since this afternoon :t:
 
Hi Lee good to see you again yesterday mate.
Steve..............

And you, hope your day back @ work was'nt too bad. Might see you @ the reserve on the weekend if you go down for even more pic's lol. If not hope to bump into you again soon
 
Far be it for me to comment on the ID with any certainty as it's years since I saw an Arctic, but is one of the features of 'exilipes' Arctic that it has a TINY bill with either straight (or even seemingly concave) culmen ? The only image here that shows this is Steve first image in #59. That said, when we were immersed in Mealies & 'exilipes' Arctics on the North East coast in the mid-late 90s I recall seeing (both in the field and trapped) Arctics (ID'd in the hand) that were streakier and browner than accompanying Mealies.... ??????
 
LGRE has sat on the fence as usual ;-))

"
Steve Seal and Dave Hutton are to be commended for obtaining such stunning images of this beautiful bird - they are absolutely brilliant photographs. I have to say that I am amazed that this bird is being touted as a Scandinavian Arctic Redpoll (broadcast by RBA and sanctioned by Martin Garner, Chris Batty - of RBA, Andy Stoddart and others apparently, although full apologies if this information is not correct).

In my opinion, this is just a well-marked first-winter MEALY REDPOLL - two of which are currently wintering in Bedfordshire at Greenfield Allotments, near Flitwick. I also saw large numbers of such individuals in Finland last winter when twitching Azure Tits and Pine Grosbeaks. Several of the Finnish birds had unstreaked white rumps but all had long, pointed bills.

A percentage of Mealy Redpolls DO have extensive and often unstreaked white rumps - this feature presumably accounting for such astute birders to be claiming this individual. What is important with all subtly different species is STRUCTURE - and in the case of Mealy vs Scandinavian Arctic Redpolls, the shape and size of the bill is most important. The Marsh Lane bird clearly has a largish, pointed bill and is not short, stubby and pinched-in as in typical exilipes. Furthermore, the thighs/tarsi are not particularly cloaked - exilipes has noticeably feathered tarsi. Add to this the fact that the bird has some streaking on the undertail-coverts and heavy streaking on the flanks and sides, then for me there is no question - this bird is a non-starter.

In the last invasion of redpolls into Britain (two winters ago, I think), such birds as this were not that rare and I remember seeing at least 5 such birds in a huge redpoll flock in West Sussex. The identification of birds in that influx (involving c8,000 birds) was hotly debated, and the conclusion that Chris Heard and I came to was that only extreme individuals should be recorded as Mealies (although the identification of the predominantly dark (ie brown) first-winter birds was never satisfactorily resolved - perhaps most of these were Mealies as Lesser Redpoll proper is now a very scarce bird indeed in Europe).

What surprises me most about this current episode is that one of those observers mentioned above actually saw and photographed at least one genuine exilipes in 2006 - at High Hoyland Church in South Yorkshire. Darin Stanley and I obtained excellent views of an undoubted exilipes in the sunflower field there on 6th February (pinched-in bill, pure white unmarked undertail-coverts, limited flank streaking, feathered tarsi, etc) which Dave Britton also saw later that day (Dave also considered two further birds to be exilipes, although my notes for the day recorded up to 43 Mealy, several of which were very well-marked). The Arctic Redpoll remained present from at least 5th-8th February and was seen again on 21st. However, on chasing this record up, I found that a certain aforementioned observer had not had the confidence in any of the birds - several of which were better than the Marsh Lane individual I must add - and consequently not one of the birds has EVER been documented or submitted (I didn't submit it to BBRC as I didn't want to infringe on the finder's rights).

Redpoll identification has been in freefall for a number of years and repeatedly we see birds misidentified (from Fair Isle to the Outer Hebrides to Norfolk). The major pitfall is Icelandic Redpoll, which as Yann Kolbeinsson regularly informs me, is highly variable and most likely breeds in NW Scotland. Birds of this form do appear to have a tendency to have white rumps and are remarkably difficult to separate from both Mealy and Scandinavian Arctic Redpoll. However, on average, they are larger in proportions (eg, in bill, legs, wings), are very grey, often heavily streaked and have noticeably feathered tarsi.

I cannot stand by and allow the parameters of Arctic Redpoll be changed - birds such as this can not be used as a benchmark in which exilipes identification can be measured. To do so, the flood gates would be well and truly opened - I had enough of this scenario in Norfolk the last time exilipes invaded in unprecedented numbers. It worries me immensely however the calibre of observers backing this particular loser, as between them, they have extensive experience with redpoll identification. "
 
Birding World Vol 18 No2 page 76 shows a presumed Icelandic bird with a Pure white looking rump & undertail coverts & also the thicker flank streaking which the Marsh lane bird seems to show???
Dave

Redpoll identification is truly a mess, for example Svensson mentions (in the passerine guide) that some of the skins in museums labeled as Icelandic Redpolls are actually Arctic Redpolls that have been misidentified...

The above two statements probably sum it up quite well.

As two BBRC members have already accepted it (see Surfbirds forum) then if you want it on your "official" list you may want to get down there. No-one is infallible though no matter how high your regard for them may be.

This may be of interest too, though presumably it refers to Hornemannii
http://sibleyguides.blogspot.com/2008/01/my-holiday-redpoll-photos.html

Good birding to all in 2008|:D|
 
As two BBRC members have already accepted it (see Surfbirds forum) then if you want it on your "official" list you may want to get down there. No-one is infallible though no matter how high your regard for them may be.|

Firstly, I don't think Arctic Redpoll is a BBRC rarity now - was it not dropped recently? Secondly, because two BBRC members have "accepted" it, doesn't mean it really is one. Is this not more a reflection of what those members are prepared to allow through as an Arctic Redpoll?

It is a rare day indeed when I agree with LGRE - but in this instance I think he is right to strongly question the ID of this bird. I too would be seriously worried about the structure, undertail streaking and bill shape in particular. Martin Garner is a very sound birder, but a single persons opinion is just that, an opinion.
 
Hi Guys Marsh Lane is my local patch and I've taken some pics of the Redpolls but am now not certain if the pics below are Mealy,Arctic or Lesser.Can ayone advise please.

Max.
 

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Hi Guys Marsh Lane is my local patch and I've taken some pics of the Redpolls but am now not certain if the pics below are Mealy,Arctic or Lesser.Can ayone advise please.

Max.

Hi Max

I'll try to sum it up but Dave has been keeping track of this as well as Steve and Lee et al. The very pale bird presenet pre christmas is the same bird that is present now. It was originally ID'd as a pale Mealy, possible icelandic race, and is now being put out on news services as Arctic, though the debate is still on-going and will probably never settle.
There was the possibility of a second Mealy as Lee produced a set of shots which appeared to show a darker more streaked bird. Some say it was the same bird in different light etc and some say it was a second bird.
I would say the birds you have shots of are the Lessers and the Mealy/Arctic (http://www.max547.fotopic.net/c1434604.html). What you call it is up to you. I personally think even if any official bodies conclude the ID some will still question it as it is such an awkward bird that hasn't read the books on what it should look like!

HTH's

Gareth
 
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some will still question it as it is such an awkward bird that hasn't read the books on what it should look like!

HTH's

Gareth

it doesn't look like the books say it should, which is the problem

Aside from other comments, the utc streaking (the shape of the marks and extent) appears to be at odds with the BB2001 review of the identification. The lower rear flanks also appear heavily marked. It may be that the boundaries are being extended slightly on exilipes. But i presume people have looked at skins and studied known exilipes and found the streaking to be within acceptable parameters. This could be a minefield for county committees and it's one species that should go back on the list - with Dusky and Radde's, cough.

these ids are based, as everyone likes to remind us, on a suite of features. Does this bird have two armchairs whilst missing a settee? How's that for a tortured analogy?
 
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Just to take a different tangent. Much like the Crossbill group, the division between species and race lies in very cloudy water, and I wonder how long before all the Redpolls are considered for mass-lumping (showing a massive clinal variation across their entire range).

I agree with Tim, Arctic Redpolls could become a real headache for local recording committees - and with different committees using different benchmarks for accepting future individuals, the true status of this species (race?) may become even more clouded, with potentially the same type of birds being rejected by one local committee, but accepted by another. BBRC should take this species back under their collective wings.

On the subject of BBRC species. I see they are requesting all 2008 records of potential Siberian "tristris" Chiffchaff to be submitted this year.
 
it doesn't look like the books say it should, which is the problem

Aside from other comments, the utc streaking (the shape of the marks and extent) appears to be at odds with the BB2001 review of the identification. The lower rear flanks also appear heavily marked. It may be that the boundaries are being extended slightly on exilipes. But i presume people have looked at skins and studied known exilipes and found the streaking to be within acceptable parameters. This could be a minefield for county committees and it's one species that should go back on the list - with Dusky and Radde's, cough.

Just been sent a PDF file re Redpoll identification, the stuff on UTC streaking is interesting...

''Both species have white undertail-coverts. On some exilipes, they are
entirely unmarked, but most show long, narrow, dark grey streaks on the
longest feathers. The longest undertail-coverts of C. f. flammea have broad,
dark, lanceolate central streaks, giving them the appearance of being
bordered with white, rather than white with a thin, dark central line.
Though an overlap in streak-width occurs, the extremes are diagnostic.

In Swedish Lapland, the streaks on the longest undertail-covert averaged a
maximum of 1.3 mm wide for 211 exilipes and 3.8 mm wide for 636 C.f.
flammea. Only five flammea possessed a streak less than 2 mm wide (Molau
1985). There must, however, be no doubt that it is the
longest undertail-covert that is being studied''

I'll go back and check the pics, but didn't the bird have quite a large, thick streak on the longest UTC??

D
 
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