• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Which Harrier? (1 Viewer)

Pariah said:
I have to say, that regardless of what people think of how andy posted his original message, or their thoughts on the tone of said message,
He nevertheless succeeded in being the first to lay out ALL the relevant points for the ID of this bird, with relevant references, in a clear and concise manner.
And above all, he was right.
Ive been often accused of being arrogant in the past, but the fact of the matter is when you are right you're right.
Fair play.

Pariah
Click to expand...

Personally, I value good manners more than being right.
 
Joern Lehmhus said:
I have been following this thread with interest, because it is a good debate over an interesting and, in my eyes, not easy bird...

I seldom comment anything here apart from ID-Questions, but at the moment I find it nessecary to do so. I come here to give ID help in fields where I can, and, even more important, to receive information and learn from people who have more experience (and there are quite a lot here, even though I am not an inexperienced birder).

Andy (Real Grosser), I valuate the the field marks and discussion points you gave in your first mails...
but I have to admit how you expressed it sounded extremely arrogant to me. (I guess this may be because I am no native speaker and perhaps wasn´t meant to sound like this-if so, my apologies).

Re your last mail: I wonder what kind of birders people are that call BF people idiots. I think Birdforum is an open place for people with very different amounts of knowledge on birds, but which all share a fascination for birds. So if some birders tend to call the people that meet at this forum idiots,fine by me, they can well stay away.

But I think birding also involves a responsibility. It is also about learning to appreciate to love and to help protecting nature, in a time where the world looses more and more of its natural resources and richness through the acts of mankind.

By to help protecting nature I do not generally mean, everybody has to engage in nature conservation like crazy. It even helps to take a little time to show people who are curious on what we (birders) are doing, what we see through our bioculars and scopes. You only get people to understand and,in the end ,to protect, what they know.
And in my opinion, this is also a place Birdforum is for- so the "ignorant " are needed here as much as the "knowledgable" people.

A bit clumsily expressed, maybe, but I hope it is understandable.

Best Regards,
Jörn

By the way, I get a Monty´s impression from this harrier.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the trouble to say those things- I'm with you both on what you say about birdforum and the harrier..
 
Zek - Can you forward my first post to Cameron please?

Joern - I agree with what you're saying. However, the problem with these forums is that threads often get hijacked by the same old people who feel that they know what they are talking about but clearly don't have a clue and NEVER back up their claims with examples or references to source or photographs. They then post many, many times until they have drowned out the truth. These are the idiots that other birders refer to as being prevalent on this forum. (note how many people have quietly stated just once that this bird is a Monties based on the secondary bars).

I spent some considerable time drafting my first post which included finding source material and cross-referencing. I then posted it and got back a sarcastic comment from Nerdwicher8 in response. Their kind needs to be dismissed and quickly hence my second rather more bullish posting.

Apologies if I offended anyone else.

Cheers,

Andy.
 
There's no reason why you can't have both good manners AND being right...

As far as I can see there wasn't anything at all wrong with Andy's first post - together with Greg's later comments, it'll be the first place I look if I ever need a good referenced summary of the features online, away from the relevant literature. Credit where credit's due: it's concise and accurate. As Andy has said, there aren't many ID posts made here with such clarity and authority.

The second post is a different story, and the less said about it the better.

It is a real shame that there aren't more experienced birders that contribute here, since there's always interesting stuff to talk about, ID related or not... But to rectify the situation will take two things:

1: people prepared to be patient, and point out others' mistakes in a non-confrontational manner
2: people prepared to admit that they are wrong, or may be wrong, and acknowledge others' points of view without resorting to point scoring.

Both appear to be in rather short supply (though with notable exceptions).
 
Last edited:
Real Grosser on my list said:
Joern - I agree with what you're saying. However, the problem with these forums is that threads often get hijacked by the same old people who feel that they know what they are talking about but clearly don't have a clue and NEVER back up their claims with examples or references to source or photographs. They then post many, many times until they have drowned out the truth. These are the idiots that other birders refer to as being prevalent on this forum. (note how many people have quietly stated just once that this bird is a Monties based on the secondary bars).
Click to expand...
That´s true--sometimes internet forums only work with a load of patience ;)
 
dbradnum said:
It is a real shame that there aren't more experienced birders that contribute here, since there's always interesting stuff to talk about, ID related or not... But to rectify the situation will take two things:

1: people prepared to be patient, and point out others' mistakes in a non-confrontational manner
2: people prepared to admit that they are wrong, or may be wrong, and acknowledge others' points of view without resorting to point scoring.

Both appear to be in rather short supply (though with notable exceptions).
Click to expand...

Well said ! B :)
 
Real Grosser on my list said:
I then posted it and got back a sarcastic comment from Gerdwicher8 in response. Their kind needs to be dismissed and quickly hence my second rather more bullish posting.

Apologies if I offended anyone else.

Cheers,

Andy.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it pays to allow what you might call "intent leeway" from those of whose first language is not english
 
OK, thanks all.

I'll go easy on the arrogance in my next posting and I'll be more patient too.

I'm going to upload a photo of a Redpoll sp in a new thread. Please feel free to comment.

Cheers,

Andy.

:t:
 
I am probably one of those idiots (in birding terms) as I have only been birdwatching seven years - but I love BOP especially Hen harriers and wanted to put in a brief opinion as I have seen all 3 harrier species. So I only posted once on this thread but you have to learn from those better than you. That is true of all of us.
Some superb detailed discussion put forward on this thread and there are clearly excellent birders on here, from the Uk. I feel some of the best are also from Sweden, Holland and other countries who regularly contribute in a very friendly and informative way, in a language that is second nature to them. Long may that continue.
For me, a simple city lad who has discovered this new hobby, it is my highlight to get home from work and read through such threads to expand my knowledge. Its my only contact with the birding world except day trips out once or twice a month. I genuinely hope the better of those birders amongst you continue to contribute here rather than cutting yourselves off on some elite birders board (if one exists), otherwise us plebs will never learn!
Not meant to be sentimental drivel, just matter of fact.
 
If I took this winter 342 Hen pellets for my study(mum never wanted them in her household), I can easily read Andy's regurgitation
Even he is learning me, I don t take it personal.
Those Hen pellets dont give much light about their real intake either: They almost digest everything, its the same in Andy's: Not much news!
 
Last edited:
gerdwichers8 said:
If I took this winter 342 Hen pelleds for my study, I can easily read Andy's regurgitation
Even he is learning me, but I don t take it all personal.
Those Hen pelleds dont give much light about their real intake either: They almost digest everything, its the same in Andy's: Not much news!
Click to expand...


Gerd, I am not sure if I understand the wording and intention here correctly
-I apologise if I do not-
but the way i understand this it doesn´t sound good to me ....

All of us here, please let all of us differ about birds, not about personalities!!!


For example, (hijacks this thread ;) sorry) please have a look at the drawing of the strange buzzard i have now uploaded to the similarly named thread I started some time ago....vulpinus or not?
 
You re right Xeno, but I am not interested in that personal affair any way. But I ll not stop birdwatching.
Any way, about the bird: It shows very bleached upperwing coverts: All coverts appear in an extreme pale brown colour, so the bird is pale, not only on the median coverts but on the lesser and greater ones as well.
This is exeptional and proves that the bird is affected much by bleach!!
 
In the middle of april this year, I still had 1st winter Hen coming to roost in Holland: no obvious moult was found in them (some 1st winter male showed the odd grey feather in the tail during winter, but most showed no obvious moult at all), after that, I have no fresh experience ( had more than 400 samples of ringtail Hen after the beginning of 2006 untill the middle of april: one count for each event; there where 20 ish different ringtails around) with the species and had to change the Hen Harriers, the two Montague's and some tens of Marsh, for Montague's, Marsh and a Pallid (which is still under discussion as well for one Montague's feature) in Eastern Europe.
Sadly I had not one single Hen Harrier there! (but a debate with a Polish birder about a supposed Hen which was a Montague's)

It only needs 6 more weeks not to moult too many feathers (just drop one in each hand is allowed) and this first winter male plumage is in june! (where it needs to be for the subject bird)

It s not too hard (nor too complicated,that's why most stay off of Hen)to comprehend: It, a worn 1st plumage male Hen (I dont vote now: I conclude)

Edit: Since in every approach of this importance a thesis and an antithesis is needed; Montague's being the thesis and Hen being among the antitheses, I believe it served the purpose of two potential 'firsts' to test the antithesis Hen to the max. In a bit more than a week it was found that a birder with reasonable knowledge of the two species cannot consolidate in a posible Hen Harrier 1st winter male plumage while considering this bird.

The antithesis does not last.
 
Last edited:
Well, this is one of those threads which has everything that makes me stay on here with all the other idiots.

Lovely to see the way people go piling in and then back off, stick to their unloaded guns, reproach the dissidents, go for free ego points etc etc.

Oh, and we managed to identify a first for NI, even though it appears all the effort is wasted, since the record isn't going to get submitted anyway.

Love and peace,

GV (BF idiot no. 3,274)
 
zek said:
Ghostly Vision Oh said:
I understand the record is being submitted (did someone say it wasn't).

Zek.
Click to expand...
No offence, Zek - you consistently inferred that it probably wouldn't be, though.

GV

Edit - looking back, it was more an inference of diffidence on the observer's part than reticence. Hey ho, I was only joking anyway.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Ghostly Vision said:
Oh, and we managed to identify a first for NI,
Click to expand...

That s not fully right, since you made it a political deed, most of you voted the bird and did not ID it on positive grounds (unless it is allowed to ignore the negative features)
 
JANJ said:
Look at these wonderfull images, and notice the overall proportions and the tail:

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindholm/public_html/pedot/circus/pygargus3.htm

JanJ
Click to expand...

As in many, many other links, Jan has done a welcome contribution to the forum.
This is indeed the negative feature which forced me to find an explanation for the wing, rather than superficially compare it with Montague's and say: "Yes it is" (so I allow freedom of speech and even quote this opinion on my own behalf)

The built of the body; the length of the tail and the uppertail coverts and how it is as to the wing.

This link shows what I aim at in this lengthy thread: The species share many features but in their extremes they exclude the other species.

Jan is right to post this but I thank him for it even the more: In the same individual: one of the photo's shows again undeniably the body built of Montague's : No bulky chest, but flat as it belongs to this species and the tail is only good for a juvinile;
After all, you have to defend an adult female Montague's Jan ;)
This is a juv!
 
Warning! This thread is more than 15 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

Jose605
Different species / Azerbaijan
Replies
7
Views
438
Jose605
Jose605
K
Fox and Gull- Dodder river in Ireland
Replies
4
Views
495
keps
K
Henry_Flower
Harrier and wheatear (?) -- Geiseltalsee, Germany
Replies
11
Views
610
TheBlackGrouse
TheBlackGrouse
B
Pallid or montagu harrier? in Kilimanjaro Tanzania
Replies
5
Views
438
beijingbabbler
B
S
Sandpiper ID
Replies
3
Views
610
lockbreeze926
lockbreeze926

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top