-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Unknown Hawk - USA (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter dickmaley
- Start date
Hello and welcome to the forum Dick. I believe that is a Merlin, though it looks a bit odd to me. You might get more responses if you post this in the Bird Identification Q&A Forum. (With so many subforums, it can be confusing to a new poster; but that would be the subforum for all bird identification questions.)
Cheers,
Jim
Cheers,
Jim
Hey Jim - thanks for getting this thread to us here in the ID forum. This bird isn't a Merlin for a few reasons (just to name a quick few) on top of just general Falco vs. Buteo structure - pale eye (I think the falcons all just have huge pupils - someone please correct me if you know more), weaker breast-streaking pattern (see: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=183093, although I should note that I've seen young Red-shoulders with more streaking than this one), pale undertail.
I see a Buteo with a longer-than-average tail that's pale underneath; even, brown breast-streaks; pale eye; and a defined supercillium. All signs point to 1st year Red-shoulder.
Last edited:
hello,
Just to answer AlexC, falcons' eyes have the same structure as those of any other bird with the amount of pupil dilation varying according to light levels, it's just that the iris is very dark in most falcon species (and indeed many other unrelated birds) so the eye can appear to be 'all pupil' with all but a very close view - this pic of Nankeen Kestrel shows what I mean:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Kestrel444.jpg
Just to answer AlexC, falcons' eyes have the same structure as those of any other bird with the amount of pupil dilation varying according to light levels, it's just that the iris is very dark in most falcon species (and indeed many other unrelated birds) so the eye can appear to be 'all pupil' with all but a very close view - this pic of Nankeen Kestrel shows what I mean:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Kestrel444.jpg
shishmarefbirder
Well-known member
Why not a juvenile Sharp-shinned Hawk?
I think this is a bird that would be easier to identify in the field (where we could see scale better!), but is difficult from this photograph. To me, the legs are too thin, and the chest too narrow relative to the head, to be a buteo, and the tail too short to be an Accipiter, which primarily leaves one thing. And merlins certainly can show a defined supercilium. See this photo: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=157527
As for structure, the structure does not quite seem to fit any hawk perfectly. I am willing to admit I might be wrong about Merlin, but the alternatives do not look right either. In addition to thin legs and body narrowness, I am hesitant about red shouldered because of plumage characteristics, e.g. the light throat and face and the fact that thin tail bands are not visible. See this photo of an immature red shouldered for example, which has a dark throat and visible narrow tail bands even when seen from underneath: http://www.ascabird.org/redshd_herron.jpg
Best,
Jim
Last edited:
marie b
Well-known member
Just a comment from a very non-experienced-with-raptor-ID person (=me).
I have been trying very hard to educate myself on this through the forum, especially on red-shouldered, red-tailed, sharp-shinned and coopers, as the various threads emerge, as well as accumulating images of all from the web and forum for comparison. I was so glad to see that my (unposted) conclusion on this one early this morning, before anyone else posted, was Merlin! Even if it should eventually be voted down by other experts (than J. Moore). Might not be too off base after all.
:cat:
Might as well pitch in... I thought it looked a bit falcony from the thumbnail, but that impression wasn't borne out by the large version. I'm in the not-a-Merlin camp because of its general look and also specifics including pale eye, too thick-necked and squat-looking, doesn't have the 'pushed-in' forehead shape, underpart streaking not right.
What it is, though, I'm not sure. Shape-wise, Red-shouldered looks a good call.
What it is, though, I'm not sure. Shape-wise, Red-shouldered looks a good call.
You may be right, but to me, at least from this angle, the body appears too small relative to the size of the head (too short and narrow) for a buteo (compare to proportions seen in the photo of a RSh i linked to at the end of my previous post). I agree the structure does not appear quite right for a falcon either. However, not sure about Europe, but in North America there are several races of Merlin that can vary from quite light to dark plumage. Also, in some hawks (not sure about Merlin), immatures can have different eyecolor than adults.
Best,
Jim
Last edited:
goshawk227
Diehard Massachusetts Birder
I'm all for juvy Red-shouldered. Even looking at the thumbnail the structure is just odd for a falcon. If this indeed was a Merlin, which is isnt to me, it would be a 'Taiga' Merlin, which would have buffy undertail coverts in all plumages, fine streaking on the upper breast, with no 'teardropping', thickening to very heavy blotches further down on the belly. Also, the head color would contrast with the breast and sides.
birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
The bird is an accipter, definitely NOT a Merlin!! Prob a young RS Hawk
Well, there are not many hawk ID threads where an accipiter, a falcon, and a buteo will all be guessed. In my experience, a Red-shouldered Hawk is one of the most chameleon-like hawks in its ability to appear differently structured in different poses. That is a point I agree points in favor of red shouldered, and if the rest of you can see it as a buteo, I guess I will have to join the crowd and side with the red shouldered camp.
Jim
Jim
LindaCO
Member
When was the picture taken? If in summer, could this maybe be a juvenile Broad-winged Hawk? Here is a picture that makes me think this:
http://content.ornith.cornell.edu/UEWebApp/images/KTK_112002_100005_L_1.jpg
The mystery bird is less heavily streaked, but the features looked similar to a Broad-winged to me.
Linda
http://content.ornith.cornell.edu/UEWebApp/images/KTK_112002_100005_L_1.jpg
The mystery bird is less heavily streaked, but the features looked similar to a Broad-winged to me.
Linda
I had assumed it was taken recently, so had not considered broad winged. However, the EXIF data for the photo indicate it was taken on August 14, 2007, so broad winged would be a possibility. It would also explain why several of us see the bird as too small for a red shouldered. But I do not have time to analyze it further at the moment.
Best,
Jim
Last edited:
birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
I meant the bird was obviously part of Accipitridae (which includes buteos) and not Falconidae!!
I cannot see any reason why it would not be a juvenile Broad-winged Hawk, as Linda suggested (thanks Linda!). It makes sense of the small size, indistinct tail banding, and light throat and relatively light center breast (red shouldered juveniles typically have a darker throat and more heavily streaked central breast). here is another photo of a juvenile Broad-winged for comparison:
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=12875
Best,
Jim
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=12875
Best,
Jim
Last edited:
dickmaley
Well-known member
I want to thank all of you very much. Your expertise and love of birding is apparent.
This picture was taken last summer. At that time I sent it to a local expert, who identified this a a juvenile Red-shouldered Hawk. That assessment bothered me because it looks so unlike the adult. Consequently, upon joining the BirdForm I felt compelled to resolve the issue.
Again, I thank for your attempts at resolving this mystery.
Dick Maley
This picture was taken last summer. At that time I sent it to a local expert, who identified this a a juvenile Red-shouldered Hawk. That assessment bothered me because it looks so unlike the adult. Consequently, upon joining the BirdForm I felt compelled to resolve the issue.
Again, I thank for your attempts at resolving this mystery.
Dick Maley
Not a 1st year Sharpie for a few reasons: bad Accipiter structure in general, not long enough tail, very pale undertail, and the tip of the tail is DARK vs. light.
NOTE: J. Moore - glad to see you come to the RSH side - now just for the sake of documentation (and the fact that I already wrote this long post and don't want it to go to waste, hahaha) here are my responses to some of your points:
Narrow chest and thin legs like this?
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=178022
Variability, ma brotha. You can show me a million photos of dark throated, prominent tail-banded young Red-shoulders, but the fact is I can throw back a good number with light throats and less prominent tail-bands. See 1st attached photo to start ("Red-shouldered Hawk, immature" - source: BNA "Appearance" section of RSH).
Plus, if you're saying that the undertail is too PALE for Red-shoulder, then I don't know where your Merlin argument stands considering that Merlins of all ages and North American races have exTREMEly dark undertails. Under Merlin's "Distinguishing Characteristics" section of the BNA site, it's stated: "The dark tail with 2–5 highly contrasting narrow light bands helps distinguish the Merlin..."
I don't know too much about aging Merlins, but doing some skimming through BNA info and BirdForum photos, all evidence points towards juvenile Merlins having fully dark eyes like adult Merlins:
See 2nd attached photo ("Juvenile Merlin, boreal subspecies (columbarius), Cape May Point, New Jersey, October 2002." - source: BNA "Distinguishing Characteristics" section of Merlin)
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=118283
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=42734
EDIT: Okay so Dick just clarified it was taken last summer.
As far as Broad-winged, I feel iffy about it, and I'll come back to analyze further later - I have to jet to class right now (Bio class, coincidentally). I will just quickly note that I believe young Broad-wings have dark (or at least darker) eyes than young Red-shoulders. See 3rd attached photo ("Broad-winged Hawk, juvenile in-hand." - source: BNA "Appearance" section of BWH).
