What is Leica obsession with short eye relief ? (1 Viewer)

marinemaster · Mar 7, 2012

I just don't understand what is Leica obsession with short eye relief ? Even the brand new Trinovid 8x42 for 2012 has a 15mm eye relief. What is their deal ? Don't they test their binoculars with enough people to realize that 15mm eye relief is not enough for everyone ?
The 8x32 Ultravid has 13 mm eye relief. That is a joke.

The new Swaro 8x32 for 2012 has 20mm eye relief, the Nikon EDG has plenty of eye relief.

vop · Mar 7, 2012

Maybe Leica don't like eyeglass wearers. Or they are backed by the contact industry. Or they just don't give a damn, 'course they're LEICA!

brocknroller · Mar 7, 2012

marinemaster,

I heard that "60 Minutes" is looking for a replacement for Andy Rooney. I suggest you send them your above post as an audition.

I agree, in this day and age, many low to mid priced roofs have good ER, so why not a top 'o the line alpha?

According to "Eyeglass and Contact Lens Market in the USA, Euromonitor, 2002," 126 million Americans wear only eyeglasses, not contacts.

While there's no data on how many of those are birders, and out of that number, how many have deep enough pockets to buy a Leica, it stands to reason from that very large number of eyeglass wearers plus the growing popularity of birding (fast growing hobby, according to some sources), the number of eyeglass wearers who are birders is likely a significant number.

So why ignore them? Well, I guess Leica is satisfied with its sales figures (after the division lost $9 million a few years back) and has the attitude "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Apparently, Leica is not interested in the four-eyed beast. Their loss, Nikon's and Swaro's gain.

Brock

WCA · Mar 7, 2012

Back in 2007, I would have bought a pair of Leica Ultravid 8x32HD had it not been for the short eye relief. Instead I bought Zeiss 8x32FL and have been incredibly happy with them. As you say, Leica's loss.

marinemaster · Mar 7, 2012

I really wanted to like the Leica, but unfortunately the short eye relief killed it for me.

spiralcoil · Mar 7, 2012

Leica of course has a reason to make the binoculars so

Hi ER is not everything, or everyone wants. By making it big, it would need to compromise or change some other size/data too, Leica binoculars are in a very compact size while being top quality and practical, it is also what some would like too. Leica does not need to make every category the same as other brands.

Many do find the so-called ER is enough on Leica binos and the package is fine for them. So Leica do have it's own characteristic features.

Not everyone wears size 10 shoes!

elkcub · Mar 7, 2012

spiralcoil said:
Hi ER is not everything, or everyone wants. By making it big, it would need to compromise or change some other size/data too, Leica binoculars are in a very compact size while being top quality and practical, it is also what some would like too. Leica does not need to make every category the same as other brands.

Many do find the so-called ER is enough on Leica binos and the package is fine for them. So Leica do have it's own characteristic features.

Not everyone wears size 10 shoes!

As summarized by Brock in post #3, "Apparently, Leica is not interested in the four-eyed beast. Their loss, Nikon's and Swaro's gain."

Do you think there will be strong objections to Swaro's new 18.5mm — 20mm eye relief for their new models? I doubt it, particularly since for the first time such products allow the average person to use sunglasses if so desired. A revolution has begun.

Ed

hinnark · Mar 7, 2012

Those Leicas that are new developed bins do have ample of ER: the Geovids. The EP construction of the 32mm Leicas hasn't changed since more than 20 years. Back then Leica was one of the leaders in suitability for eye glass wearers. That's where the "B" in BA or BN comes from. It means "Brille", German for spectacles or glasses. But I agree, times and eyeglass fashion have changed since then.

Steve

brocknroller · Mar 7, 2012

elkcub said:
As summarized by Brock in post #3, "Apparently, Leica is not interested in the four-eyed beast. Their loss, Nikon's and Swaro's gain."

Do you think there will be strong objections to Swaro's new 18.5mm — 20mm eye relief for their new models? I doubt it, particularly since for the first time such products allow the average person to use sunglasses if so desired. A revolution has begun.

Ed

¡Viva la Revolución!

Zapata

lilcrazy2 · Mar 7, 2012

brocknroller said:
So why ignore them? Well, I guess Leica is satisfied with its sales figures (after the division lost $9 million a few years back) and has the attitude "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Apparently, Leica is not interested in the four-eyed beast. Their loss, Nikon's and Swaro's gain.

Brock

Brock

You seem to always quote Leica's sales for 2009 which would fall into line with the global recession, however, you seem to ignore the fact that Leica has posted record sales and profits from 2010 onward, are in the process of building a new factory in Germany, and are projecting sales growth approaching 30% over 2011.

I would suspect the philosophy of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems to be working quite well for them, despite your musings to the contrary.

Glenn Stevens · Mar 7, 2012

I wonder how many people wear eyeglasses but like me still can't see the full field of view even with 20mm of eye relief or don't like the reflections comming in from the side. Because of these problems I don't wear eyeglasses when using binoculars. I'm an eyeglass wearer who finds Leica's 8x32 and 10x32 just fine. Glenn

brocknroller · Mar 7, 2012

spiralcoil said:
Hi ER is not everything, or everyone wants. By making it big, it would need to compromise or change some other size/data too, Leica binoculars are in a very compact size while being top quality and practical, it is also what some would like too. Leica does not need to make every category the same as other brands.

Many do find the so-called ER is enough on Leica binos and the package is fine for them. So Leica do have it's own characteristic features.

Not everyone wears size 10 shoes!

spiralcoil,

True! Mine are size 13.

I also have large hands, which narrow and short roofs do not fit well.

Are you're saying is if Leica increases the ER, they will need to make Leica binoculars longer and/or wider?

Minox is known for its compact-sized binoculars (and cameras).

Here's how the 8x43 HG APO stacks up against the 8x42 Ultravid HG in dimensions, ER and FOV:

Dimensions (width/height)
8x42 Ultravid HG 4 3⁄4" x 5 5⁄8"
8x43 HG APO 5.15" x 6.02"

Eye Relief
8x42 Ultravid HG 15.5mm
8x43 HG APO 19mm

FOV
8x42 Ultravid HG 7.4*
8x43 HD APO 7.2*

The Minox is over a 1/4" wider but only a little more than an eighth of an inch longer. The FOV is very close.

Here are the midsized models compared:

Dimensions (width/height
8x33 HG 5.15" 5.27
8x32 HD 4 5⁄8" x 4 5⁄8"

Eye Relief
8x33 HG 16.5mm
8x32 HD 13.3mm

FOV
8x33 HG 8.1*
8x32 HD 7.7*

In the midsized models, the difference in width is about the same as the full sized models, which is not much, but in height, the HD is the "shorty". But it's also the "shorty" in ER.

Some eyeglass wearers might be able to squeeze by with 15.5mm in the full sized HDs (provided that's all useable), but much less so with 13.3mm in the midsized HDs, as posts above attested.

While Leica has Minox beat by an inch worm's head, it suggests that Leica could increase the ER on the Ultravids without significantly losing their compactness. IOW, it seems that you can have your cake and eat it too.

The only reason I can imagine that Leica isn't accommodating eyeglass wearers is that it would require an EP redesign, which would add cost to already costly binoculars. But what's $200-$300 extra at this price point? Particularly, with Swarovski already past the $2K threshold.

I will let the experts weigh in here, perhaps there's something I'm missing... like a few screws.

Brock

Kammerdiner · Mar 7, 2012

Glenn Stevens said:
I wonder how many people wear eyeglasses but like me still can't see the full field of view even with 20mm of eye relief or don't like the reflections comming in from the side. Because of these problems I don't wear eyeglasses when using binoculars. I'm an eyeglass wearer who finds Leica's 8x32 and 10x32 just fine. Glenn

It all depends on astigmatism. If you've got it, then going without glasses is not an option. Binoculars can't correct astigmatism. Take away my glasses and a Swarovision looks like a $75 Bushnell. Anyone with astigmatism should get bins that work with glasses.

If you can't see the full field with bins providing 20mm eye relief, you either have deep-set eyes or glasses that don't sit very close to your eyes, or both. You can try getting closer-fitting glasses. 20mm is really the upper limit of what I want with glasses. 15mm seems to be about the minimum, and that only works if the manufacture has provided shallow eyecups. These figures will be dependent upon the individual, but I suspect maybe 90% of eyeglass wearers would be fine with, say 18mm? That should be an OK compromise even for those who don't wear glasses.

As for the sidelong reflections, some bins seem more prone than others. I couldn't really tell you why, except maybe that bins with oculars more recessed in the eyecups seem to suffer less. The Zeiss FL seems to suffer somewhat because it only has 16mm relief and super-shallow cups. Lots of sidelight can get in and hit the lens. The SV fares much better with 20mm relief and deeply-set oculars.

Mark

steve@37n84w · Mar 8, 2012

hinnark said:
Those Leicas that are new developed bins do have ample of ER: the Geovids. The EP construction of the 32mm Leicas hasn't changed since more than 20 years. Back then Leica was one of the leaders in suitability for eye glass wearers. That's where the "B" in BA or BN comes from. It means "Brille", German for spectacles or glasses. But I agree, times and eyeglass fashion have changed since then.

Steve

Not for sure what Leica lists for the eye relief specs on the Geovids but my 8x42 Geovid HD measures exactly 13mm with the eyecups fully extended.
Plenty enough for me, but I don't wear glasses.

Steve

Glenn Stevens · Mar 8, 2012

If the oculars are recessed more, I would think you would need more eye relief. I don't see how one can have it both ways. The side reflections I think are comming off my glasses.
And yes my glasses set out more then most because there is not much indention between my forehead and bridge of my nose. Thus the cross member between the two lenses sets out more forcing the glasses out farther. I have some astigmatism but I seem to accommodate it well. With LASIK surgery as popular as it is, eye relief may be less of a factor in the . Glenn
Glenn

Wuchak · Mar 8, 2012

On the other side of the equation is all the long eye relief binoculars that cause blackouts for those of us that wear contact lenses or have good eyesight. I tried a stunning pair of Vortex 6.5x32's that had to go back because the eye relief was too much. My Leupold HD GR 8x32's are right at the edge of almost having too much eye relief.

With too little eye relief the eyeglass wearer doesn't get the full field of view but still has usable binoculars. With too much the non-eyeglass wearer gets binoculars that are unusable due to blackout. If I was a manufacturer I'd be erring on the side of too little.

NDhunter · Mar 8, 2012

Wuchak said:
On the other side of the equation is all the long eye relief binoculars that cause blackouts for those of us that wear contact lenses or have good eyesight. I tried a stunning pair of Vortex 6.5x32's that had to go back because the eye relief was too much. My Leupold HD GR 8x32's are right at the edge of almost having too much eye relief.

With too little eye relief the eyeglass wearer doesn't get the full field of view but still has usable binoculars. With too much the non-eyeglass wearer gets binoculars that are unusable due to blackout. If I was a manufacturer I'd be erring on the side of too little.

I suppose that is why most makers have eyecups to handle any user. This
is a Leica post so I am not sure about those, but many of the top makes have
more than one intermediate stop on the eyecup, and so this subject does not
even need to brought up, for users with or without glasses.

Jerry

ronh · Mar 8, 2012

I have not used any of the top 8x32's, nor do I wear glasses. But I do wear sunglasses when it's bright, and have had 8x42 and 10x50 Leicas (15mm), 8x42 Zeiss FL (15mm), and my wife has 8.5x42mm Swarovision (20mm).

I don't see a bit of difference in the real life eye relief of any of these binoculars. With my sunglasses on I estimate I can see about 5/6 of the field through all of them.

Henry link has explained the Zeiss-Swarovski puzzle, by actually measuring the eye reliefs in some precise way. He concludes that Zeiss measures from the top of the fully retracted eyecup, while Swarovski measures from the surface of the eye lens. Both have eyecups that sit higher than the glass even all the way down, to prevent eyepiece and eyeglass lenses from scraping. So, Swarovision gets a bigger number. If they had been measured and reported in the same way, the FL and SV have equal eye relief, within 1mm.

I have not seen such an analysis of how Leica measures eye relief. But from my limited experience, I would surmise that Leica, like Zeiss, measures from the top of the eyecup.

Full time glasses wearing 32mm users' experiences may be different, and I respect that. If any 8x32 lets a glasses wearer see the whole field of view, blessed be it! Many people have complained for a long time that glasses and 32mms don't mix. Now, the implication seems to be that they do mix very well, except for Leica. That seems odd to me.

Anyhow, in my limited experience, the differences are not significant, but result mainly from the nuances of the measurements.
Ron

14Goudvink · Mar 8, 2012

I have fairly deep set eyes and close fitting glasses and when I'm fit I can see (almost?) the full field of view on my Ultravid 8x32 BR. When I am tired it gets more difficult. What I cannot do in any situation is move my eyes to the edges, without getting black-outs and other strange effects or having to tilt the bins a bit sideways. 8x32's with more eye-relief like Vortex Viper and Swarovski EL give me an easier view.

This makes me wonder: Could it be that the EP is a three-dimensional something rather than a two-dimensional circle? And that with the Leica I barely touch on the outer pane of this three-dimensional something (so I get to see the full field of view, but can't move my eyes around) and with bins with more eye-relief I am in the three dimensional EP, so my eyes can relax more and move around? And that some bins (bins with bigger eye-pieces?) have more three-dimensional EP than other bins?

George

Pinewood · Mar 8, 2012

Hello,

Maybe Leica has decided that if a buyer can afford their binoculars, then he can afford contact lenses. It would just be an after market accessory, maybe cheaper than the Leica hard leather case.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :brains:

What is Leica obsession with short eye relief ? (1 Viewer)

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