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Crossbills in Deeside, Scotland (1 Viewer)

Andrew Whitehouse

Professor of Listening
Supporter
Scotland
Just over a week ago, I made some recordings of Crossbills in the Banchory area of Deeside using a Remembird recorder. Attached are the three best recordings I made.
 

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Have you tried getting a sonogram out of them Andrew?

I'm afraid I'm still rubbish at telling the difference by ear (and by sonogram too sometimes ;)).
 
Here are copies of three sonograms I made of the recordings using Syrinx.

A isn't all that clear and is a bit tricky for me to figure out. It might be the same as C, so perhaps an fc4 (after Summers et al 2002). There's a bit of an initial upward inflection with a strong downward bit. The vertical bit isn't always obvious so I wondered about them being fc1. Not sure they sound right though.

B is the clearest, and is probably the best recording. To my eyes there is a strong initial downward inflection (with just the hint of an initial upward movement) followed by a separate vertical note. This looks rather like fc3 or a Scottish type, from looking at the Sound Approach. The recording also seems to me anyway to match the recording of Scottish from the Sound Approach reasonably well. It's quite short and sharp but relatively low in pitch and with a slightly disyllabic element.

C looks a bit similar and was recorded from the same flock of birds. The only differences that I can see are that, at least on the clearer bits, there's a more obvious initial upward inflection and the vertical bit doesn't seem to be separate and reaches higher in frequency. The sound seems pretty similar to B, but maybe not to the trained ear. It could be another fc3 but it perhaps fits fc4 better.

My main interest here isn't in getting ticks but in learning to read sonograms and distinguish different Crossbill calls, so let me know if I'm barking up the wrong conifer.
 

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Ok I can see them now. Listening to them, I'm not 100% sure that A and C are diagnostic flight or excitement calls. Certainly flight calls in recording B, but not sure what type, so I'll leave it to the expert!
 
B is the clearest, and is probably the best recording. To my eyes there is a strong initial downward inflection (with just the hint of an initial upward movement) followed by a separate vertical note. This looks rather like fc3 or a Scottish type, from looking at the Sound Approach.

Now that I'm at home I've had another look at these and at the Sound Approach sonograms, and I think you may be right about Fc3. Either that or Fc4 (Glip). But with my track record, that probably means it isn't either of these ;)
 

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Hi Andrew,

I've just found this post and thought I'd risk a comment on C. I'm no expert and recently had some named crossbill sounds and sonograms on BF corrected by Griffin. So I'll proceed with caution.
In the very useful Summers et al paper in Ibis (2002) there's an Fc3 image similar to yours at 0.8 and 2.0 seconds (see attached file created using Raven). The paper defines Type 3 as a high energy downward component after a short or no upward component, with a lower energy vertical component occuring after the main component.
So it may mean Scottie but best to wait for expert confirmation.
 

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Hi Andrew,

I've just found this post and thought I'd risk a comment on C. I'm no expert and recently had some named crossbill sounds and sonograms on BF corrected by Griffin. So I'll proceed with caution.
In the very useful Summers et al paper in Ibis (2002) there's an Fc3 image similar to yours at 0.8 and 2.0 seconds (see attached file created using Raven). The paper defines Type 3 as a high energy downward component after a short or no upward component, with a lower energy vertical component occuring after the main component.
So it may mean Scottie but best to wait for expert confirmation.

Hi Sandy - thanks for your comments and for starting your excellent thread on Crossbills. It seems that the consensus, both on here and through private correspondence, that the B recording above is of an Fc3 Scottish type.

I was back in the same area yesterday and made quite a few recordings. I don't think I got any more Fc3s though. Here's what I did get. I think we're talking 1B Parakeets, as Paul has been getting.

First recording (a) is of flight calls (sonogram screen grab from Syrinx is also attached). I was pleased that the sonogram shows some harmonics (even quite high ones) with the closest birds.

The second recording (b) is of the excitement call. The Sound Approach describe this as Blackbird like and I think you can hear why. Sonogram also provided.

Recordings were made with a Fostex FR2-LE and a Sennheiser ME66.
 

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This is another recording of flight calls. The sonogram seems to show a bit more of an initial upward element on these, but I still think they're 1B Parakeets.
 

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On the excitement call recording you may have heard a Crossbill singing in the background. This is a slightly clearer recording, again with the excitement call going on too.
 

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Vas is das ?

Andrew Whitehouse; said:
It seems that the consensus, both on here and through private correspondence, that the B recording above is of an Fc3 Scottish type.

Hi All,

Andrew alerted me to this thread on Sunday after sending me a Remembird file to compare with my own. I must confess I only looked at the sonograms as it was getting late and agreed that it looked like the Fc3 in SA, though excercised caution with the identification of that particular bird as "Scottish". Also, Scottish 'type' birds had been sound recorded and observed at this particular site previously.

Having now had a chance to listen to the calls I don't think they sound the same as those in SA, though they are similar. Andrews call is also slightly different on the sonogram in that the second element, if it is an element, rises at a slight angle rather than pointing straight up (as SA). Also, in SA the second element starts at the inflection of the first element whereas in Andrew's specimen the second element is starting from the lower part of the first element.

I am also slightly bothered by the cadence of the call for a crossbill, though it is reminiscent of a single cardueline finch in flight trying to locate the flock eg. these are contact calls.

So, it is a Fc3 in features ( two elements, freq. seems to match) but whether it is definite Scottish 'type' crossbill I cannot be absolutely sure - I haven't got this particular call for any of the released live-trapped birds I have recordings for and cannot account for the data of others. In the field I tend to get the two other Fc3 type calls, and have recorded few, if any, of the type Andrew recorded. I think the classification of the calls needs to be re-evauated and this is something I am working on, which is why I may at times appear evasive to some of you - this is very much a 'life's work' for me (or will be) and not merely a passing whim. Those of you who get the NESBR will have noticed the very careful wording regarding classification of crossbill calls !

The bottom line is I don't have all of the anwers (yet !).

Lindsay
 

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Hi All,

Andrew alerted me to this thread on Sunday after sending me a Remembird file to compare with my own. I must confess I only looked at the sonograms as it was getting late and agreed that it looked like the Fc3 in SA, though excercised caution with the identification of that particular bird as "Scottish". Also, Scottish 'type' birds had been sound recorded and observed at this particular site previously.

Having now had a chance to listen to the calls I don't think they sound the same as those in SA, though they are similar. Andrews call is also slightly different on the sonogram in that the second element, if it is an element, rises at a slight angle rather than pointing straight up (as SA). Also, in SA the second element starts at the inflection of the first element whereas in Andrew's specimen the second element is starting from the lower part of the first element.

I am also slightly bothered by the cadence of the call for a crossbill, though it is reminiscent of a single cardueline finch in flight trying to locate the flock eg. these are contact calls.

So, it is a Fc3 in features ( two elements, freq. seems to match) but whether it is definite Scottish 'type' crossbill I cannot be absolutely sure - I haven't got this particular call for any of the released live-trapped birds I have recordings for and cannot account for the data of others. In the field I tend to get the two other Fc3 type calls, and have recorded few, if any, of the type Andrew recorded. I think the classification of the calls needs to be re-evauated and this is something I am working on, which is why I may at times appear evasive to some of you - this is very much a 'life's work' for me (or will be) and not merely a passing whim. Those of you who get the NESBR will have noticed the very careful wording regarding classification of crossbill calls !

The bottom line is I don't have all of the anwers (yet !).

Lindsay

Hi Lindsay - thanks for your detailed analysis, which has helped me a lot to look more closely at the sonograms and to listen more carefully to the recordings. I can hear small differences between the SA Scottish flight call and the one I recorded and can see what you mean about the two elements on my sonogram. As I say in post 3 my main interest at the moment is in learning to read the sonograms and to distinguish between the different sounds I'm hearing. At this stage I'm pleased that I can both see and hear the differences between the bird from November, whatever it was, and the ones I recorded yesterday. I'm quite happy to leave the November bird as a 'possible Fc3'.
 
Lovely clear sonograms Andrew. How close were you?

I suppose the closest ones were overhead at treetop height but most were a bit further. I only actually saw 3 Crossbills perched and never saw the bird giving the excitement call. I'd guess that one was 20 metres or so distant at closest.
 
I suppose the closest ones were overhead at treetop height but most were a bit further.

Yes, the only time I've managed to capture the extra harmonics has been when I've been right under the tree with the birds in, like the examples below. Unfortunately, on this occasion the recording was slightly spoiled by high wind noise, and my daughter (as usual).

Still, there is a bonus glip flight call at the start of the second recording!
 

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Hi Lindsay - thanks for your detailed analysis, which has helped me a lot to look more closely at the sonograms and to listen more carefully to the recordings. I can hear small differences between the SA Scottish flight call and the one I recorded and can see what you mean about the two elements on my sonogram. As I say in post 3 my main interest at the moment is in learning to read the sonograms and to distinguish between the different sounds I'm hearing. At this stage I'm pleased that I can both see and hear the differences between the bird from November, whatever it was, and the ones I recorded yesterday. I'm quite happy to leave the November bird as a 'possible Fc3'.

You are certainly getting some good recordings so keeping at it you will build up your own experience, which is how I got started, though I didn't have threads like this on Bird Forum to help me !

It all comes down to how we classify crossbill calls - by sound or by how they look on a sonogram. By the same token is it acceptable to classify crossbills on biometrics alone - an abberant common crossbill may have a very large bill depth, or it may be a hybrid. Some common types seem better adapted to foraging on Scots Pine cones - if these have biggish bills are they then to be classified as 'Scottish' ?

To confuse the matter further I now have several examples of individual birds interchanging calls - in two cases released birds (Common) gave up to 3 different flight calls ! Whilst this may well be the exception, and I think it is, it nevertheless demands that we should exercise caution when trying to label everything.

I personally think we need to do much more on the 'semiotics' of crossbill calls - eg. what do they 'mean.' For example, I find it interesting that Groth made the distinction between a crossbill alarm call and an excitement call - we tend to count the terms as synonomous as either a "toop" or an "excitement call".

When are we going to hear some calls with your Telinga ? ! Mine is apparently coming back to me from Sweden hopefully very soon !

Lindsay
 
Yesterday I was in Durris Forest and recorded quite a few Crossbills, some well, some not so well. I got quite a wide range of different calls, although I'm still rather unsure about which forms were making some of them.

I'll start with some excitement calls. This bird appears to have been giving EcB, with the 'tower of arches' like shape on the sonogram. This perhaps makes it a Parakeet 1B, although it doesn't sound quite as 'Blackbirdy' as the SA recording, so Wandering might be a possibility.
 

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This one looks more like a EcA, with a clear downward change in frequency, with little or no initial upward element. They look more like downward slopes rather than arches. There are a few other birds in the same flock giving flight calls, which certainly seem to be Fc1 - starting high pitched, with an upward element at first follwed by a pronounced downward element. The bird giving the Ec seems like a good contender for a 1A British Crossbill and the ones giving the flight calls might also be.
 

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Here's an interesting call that a perched Crossbill was making (a 'golden cock' I think). I can't quite decide if it's a flight call, excitement call or something else entirely. It doesn't obviously fit any Fc or Ec sonograms I've seen, although it seems to produce quite a distinctive shape on the sonogram.
 

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