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Old Monday 11th September 2017, 21:00   #26
fugl
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Mind you...I hate it when I hear 'action' used as a verb. Particularly if it's 'going forward'.
Christ, that's a new one on me! But then I'm very old-fashioned in my habits of speech, "impact" used as a verb still setting my teeth on edge after all these years
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Old Monday 11th September 2017, 22:39   #27
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Mind you...I hate it when I hear 'action' used as a verb. Particularly if it's 'going forward'.
The irritatingness of that formation cannot be underestimated - which of course should be 'overestimated' (a typical illiterate BBC usage. BBC reporters are now one of the prime sources of illiteracy in the modern world). Way more than anyone else, I find.

Another one that really irritates me is 'protest' used to mean protest against - the exact opposite of the correct original meaning ('testify in favour of, assert' : "I protest my innocence."). What people hundreds of years hence will think we all meant to say is beyond imagining.

(/old fogey)

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Old Monday 11th September 2017, 23:53   #28
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The irritatingness of that formation cannot be underestimated - which of course should be 'overestimated' (a typical illiterate BBC usage. BBC reporters are now one of the prime sources of illiteracy in the modern world). Way more than anyone else, I find.

Another one that really irritates me is 'protest' used to mean protest against - the exact opposite of the correct original meaning ('testify in favour of, assert' : "I protest my innocence."). What people hundreds of years hence will think we all meant to say is beyond imagining.

(/old fogey)

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The only good thing to come out of this horrendous bastardisation of the language is business lingo bingo, a game that has got me through many a meeting!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h..._bingocard.pdf
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 01:52   #29
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It's fascinating how soon the veneer of dispassionate scientific detachment cracks in these discussions. We--some of us anyway--start out wrapped in the mantel of linguistic science where usage is everything and prescription has no place at all. Until, that is, we start hitting usages we don't like--really really don't like--and up in flames we go, condemning them in the most angry and intemperate terms. Mea culpa! You too, Sancho.
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 12:45   #30
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So, going forward, are we all singing from the same hymn sheet when we agree to action the use of 'bird' as a verb?
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 13:33   #31
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I think both linguistic description and prescription are valuable activities and inform each other. I also wouldn't characterize dictionaries as simply being descriptions of usage. They standardize “correct” spellings, and categorize usage as being "standard" or "non-standard." That is the essence of prescriptivism. Moreover, prescribing standards is essential to language. You don't have a common language unless people speak largely the same way. This doesn't mean we can't disagree with a dictionary of course, but I think we should be cautious about doing so.

That said, I agree that dictionaries should not necessarily be viewed as settling the question in this instance. (E.g. even if they didn't have the definition in dispute). The reason is that "bird" in the sense used by birders is a specialist or technical term. General dictionaries don't purport to completely describe specialist language, that's why we have specialist dictionaries for medicine, law, philosophy, etc. There are also, of course, birders' dictionaries, e.g.

https://www.amazon.com/Birders-Dicti...27s+dictionary

Interestingly, that book has the definition of "bird" in dispute in this thread on its cover.
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 14:20   #32
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What about the use of 'bring' mainly by Americans it has to be said, when they should say 'take'.

'I'll bring you on holiday next year'.....you won't, you'll take me. The use of bring is linked to time and place, the here and now is bring, a future or geographically distant place is take.

Accents and spellings are one thing but this is being used completely, wrongly and what happens in America and on American tv, gets picked up for wider usage, mainly by Europeans who speak English as a second language.

Re 'verbifying' words, that is at least a derivation and progression of a root word, very different to using the wrong word!

Here are a few lines from the BBC today about the culling of Bison.

It is seeking volunteers to help cull a herd of bison in the famous gorge, which it says are damaging park resources.

About 600 bison live in the area, but experts say that could hit 1,500 in a decade if their numbers are not controlled.

A lottery system will be used to choose the shooters.

The bison are owned by the state of Arizona, and are descended from animals brought there in the 1900s.


The word used should surely be 'taken', they were either 'taken there' or if the person was reporting from the actual place, 'brought here'.

I don't think it's too much to ask, that people who write for a living, presumably in their native language, should be able to do so competently?


A

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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 14:55   #33
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'I'll bring you on holiday next year'.....you won't, you'll take me. The use of bring is linked to time and place, the here and now is bring, a future or geographically distant place is take.
erm......

"when you visit me next year can you bring your telescope"

"please take that thing away from here right now"

bring = towards, take = away, nothing to do with time and place, or here and now
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 15:04   #34
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I bird.
I used to birdwatch.
Other people think I bird-spot.

I am a birder.
David
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 15:14   #35
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erm......

"when you visit me next year can you bring your telescope"

"please take that thing away from here right now"

bring = towards, take = away, nothing to do with time and place, or here and now

My original point, which your response supports, regardless, is that an American might say 'bring that to James' when he should say 'take that to James'.

The article I quoted, also has the wrong usage of 'brought' when used in conjunction with 'there'



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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 16:59   #36
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It's fascinating how soon the veneer of dispassionate scientific detachment cracks in these discussions. We--some of us anyway--start out wrapped in the mantel of linguistic science where usage is everything and prescription has no place at all. Until, that is, we start hitting usages we don't like--really really don't like--and up in flames we go, condemning them in the most angry and intemperate terms. Mea culpa! You too, Sancho.
I have been accused of many things in my life, Fugl, but consistency was never one of them!

BTW...'Bring' and 'Take' are often used interchangeably here as well. It depends on the context, and sometimes confuses me. Obviously if I'm in a restaurant I say 'Waiter, bring me a crocodile sandwich and make it snappy'. And I ask him to 'take ' the dishes 'away'. Some song may 'bring back memories', but do they 'take' or 'bring' me 'back' to my youth? And what should I do with my mother-in-law....'bring' or 'take' her 'birding'? And my friend 'took' me to the pub....or maybe he 'brought' me there....
(P.S. maybe we should be sent to RF before this gets ugly)

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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 17:18   #37
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Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
What about the use of 'bring' mainly by Americans it has to be said, when they should say 'take'.

'I'll bring you on holiday next year'.....you won't, you'll take me. The use of bring is linked to time and place, the here and now is bring, a future or geographically distant place is take.

Accents and spellings are one thing but this is being used completely, wrongly and what happens in America and on American tv, gets picked up for wider usage, mainly by Europeans who speak English as a second language.

Re 'verbifying' words, that is at least a derivation and progression of a root word, very different to using the wrong word!

Here are a few lines from the BBC today about the culling of Bison.

It is seeking volunteers to help cull a herd of bison in the famous gorge, which it says are damaging park resources.

About 600 bison live in the area, but experts say that could hit 1,500 in a decade if their numbers are not controlled.

A lottery system will be used to choose the shooters.

The bison are owned by the state of Arizona, and are descended from animals brought there in the 1900s.


The word used should surely be 'taken', they were either 'taken there' or if the person was reporting from the actual place, 'brought here'.

I don't think it's too much to ask, that people who write for a living, presumably in their native language, should be able to do so competently?


A
I think you should realize that just like we think there is such a verb as "to bird" other usages change as well. It will not be the first time in history that a word got a different meaning or even changed to the exact opposite meaning.

Niels
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 17:28   #38
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I bird.
I used to birdwatch.
Other people think I bird-spot.

I am a birder.
David
No:

I am a birder
You are a birdwatcher
He is a birdspotter

It's one of those irregular English verbs (™ Yes Prime Minister)
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 17:32   #39
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And what should I do with my mother-in-law....'bring' or 'take' her 'birding'?
Isn't "send" the correct verb here?

(Sorry, Neanderthal mother-in-law joke, couldn't resist)
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 17:44   #40
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I think if we can 'bird' (which I think we should be able to, if for no other reason than it sounds indefinably cooler than the 'birdwatching' I used to do as a youth)...then we ought to be able to 'bring' or 'take' along a friend when we do so in an interchangeable manner.

Although I have my pet hate Atlanticisms ('combo' being pretty close to top of the list), I don't support the recurring narrative expressed on BF that the English language (as written / spoken by the English) is either intrinsically superior to, or under threat from, American cultural imperialism. It is an unfortunate characteristic of the English to assume that their version of the language is the only 'correct' one. American English contains many words and spellings which can claim at least as old a provenance as those currently used in UK - 'sidewalk', 'turnpike', 'gray' etc. It seems a little churlish to focus on the neologisms - the combos and the 'actioning', especially when we are equally enthusiastic adopters on this side of the pond.

I think in doing so we overlook a greater threat to cultural and linguistic diversity on our own doorstep, which is the loss of regional accents and vocabulary within the UK, promoted by the pervasiveness of domestic media and its 'estuarine' southern English accents. I want to continue to get a 'spelk' in my finger (well, I don't really, they can be quite painful...), and describe something as 'femer' rather than fragile.
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 18:09   #41
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I don't support the recurring narrative expressed on BF that the English language (as written / spoken by the English) is either intrinsically superior to, or under threat from, American cultural imperialism.
Agree. But I still am not going to call a skua a jaeger :)
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 18:20   #42
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I think if we can 'bird' (which I think we should be able to, if for no other reason than it sounds indefinably cooler than the 'birdwatching' I used to do as a youth)...then we ought to be able to 'bring' or 'take' along a friend when we do so in an interchangeable manner.

Although I have my pet hate Atlanticisms ('combo' being pretty close to top of the list), I don't support the recurring narrative expressed on BF that the English language (as written / spoken by the English) is either intrinsically superior to, or under threat from, American cultural imperialism. It is an unfortunate characteristic of the English to assume that their version of the language is the only 'correct' one. American English contains many words and spellings which can claim at least as old a provenance as those currently used in UK - 'sidewalk', 'turnpike', 'gray' etc. It seems a little churlish to focus on the neologisms - the combos and the 'actioning', especially when we are equally enthusiastic adopters on this side of the pond.

I think in doing so we overlook a greater threat to cultural and linguistic diversity on our own doorstep, which is the loss of regional accents and vocabulary within the UK, promoted by the pervasiveness of domestic media and its 'estuarine' southern English accents. I want to continue to get a 'spelk' in my finger (well, I don't really, they can be quite painful...), and describe something as 'femer' rather than fragile.
Like buttion

By the way folks, if its all getting too much the antidote was given on post 16.
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 18:37   #43
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We may as well just start calling 'up'- 'down' after all, they did it with 'bad' which it seems means good.

How will a teacher mark your kids English exam if they use 'bring' when they should use 'take' or write 'theater' istead of 'theatre'?

As I said before, pronunciation and spelling is one thing, but words have established meanings and the wrong usage is being allowed to creep in unchallenged. No one has suggested that English-English is 'superior'. If I've come across as if I have, that has not been my intention but the English I grew up with is not being lost, it's being given away, without a fight, to some, it does matter.

Even BBC presenters now say 'normalcy', the word is normality for goodness sake!

Off to take my manstruation supplement.....

PS If Notts County lose tonight, expect me to be in an even worse mood.........


A
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Old Tuesday 12th September 2017, 22:55   #44
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Isn't "send" the correct verb here?

(Sorry, Neanderthal mother-in-law joke, couldn't resist)
You're forgiven Dave. I set that one up
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Old Wednesday 13th September 2017, 12:40   #45
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Agree. But I still am not going to call a skua a jaeger :)
Agree too, sounds like an expensive cardigan...plus there is no logic for using two different English names for the same genus.

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We may as well just start calling 'up'- 'down' after all, they did it with 'bad' which it seems means good.

A
I hate to point it out, but 'getting down' was a thankfully now archaic term for having a good time in the '60s and '70s. You could find some consolation in the fact that both it and 'bad = good' are probably both considered completely outdated by today's youth. And I see Notts County won last night !
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Old Wednesday 13th September 2017, 12:59   #46
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And I see Notts County won last night !

Best start to a season in a very long time, thank you for noticing. You can do what you like with the English language today..


A
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Old Wednesday 13th September 2017, 13:06   #47
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Agree too, sounds like an expensive cardigan...plus there is no logic for using two different English names for the same genus.
The usage is eminently logical--it is classifying birds on the basis of appearance, which is useful to birders. Jaegers are frequently confused with other jaeger species--indeed they can be almost indistinguishable in certain plumages. Skuas are rarely, if ever, confused with jaegers, and are considerably bulkier. Plus "jaeger" is the german word for "hunter." Again, an apt choice.

The discussion of "skuas" in the Collins guide reflects the awkwardness of using the same word for both jaegers and skuas. It has a single section discussing “field identification of skuas” but repeatedly has to distinguish the two groups. Here are three examples:

– “Adults of the smaller species have long, projecting tail-feathers of characteristic shape.”

– “Apart from plumage distinctions, skuas are recognized by more pointed ‘hand’ (not so valid for the broad-winged Great Skua, of course)…”

– “The most difficult part of skua identification is to separate non-adults of Arctic, Pomarine and Long-tailed Skuas.”
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Old Wednesday 13th September 2017, 13:53   #48
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Mind you...I hate it when I hear 'action' used as a verb. Particularly if it's 'going forward'.
*Barf*

"Going forward" is one of those toxic phrases that has thoroughly infected business life over here. People who use it often must think they sound all clever; to me, it just sounds like they are being precious.
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Old Wednesday 13th September 2017, 14:23   #49
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The usage is eminently logical--it is classifying birds on the basis of appearance, which is useful to birders. Jaegers are frequently confused with other jaeger species--indeed they can be almost indistinguishable in certain plumages. Skuas are rarely, if ever, confused with jaegers, and are considerably bulkier. Plus "jaeger" is the german word for "hunter." Again, an apt choice.

The discussion of "skuas" in the Collins guide reflects the awkwardness of using the same word for both jaegers and skuas. It has a single section discussing “field identification of skuas” but repeatedly has to distinguish the two groups. Here are three examples:

– “Adults of the smaller species have long, projecting tail-feathers of characteristic shape.”

– “Apart from plumage distinctions, skuas are recognized by more pointed ‘hand’ (not so valid for the broad-winged Great Skua, of course)…”

– “The most difficult part of skua identification is to separate non-adults of Arctic, Pomarine and Long-tailed Skuas.”
Whereas great, brown, Chilean and South Polar are easily separated??

I appreciate the etymology and meaning of 'jaeger' and apologise if my intentionally light-hearted post drifted into the realms of anglocentric chauvinism that I'd previously criticised.
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Old Wednesday 13th September 2017, 14:31   #50
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As I said before, pronunciation and spelling is one thing, but words have established meanings and the wrong usage is being allowed to creep in unchallenged. No one has suggested that English-English is 'superior'. If I've come across as if I have, that has not been my intention but the English I grew up with is not being lost, it's being given away, without a fight, to some, it does matter.
And as I said before: it has happened in the past and it will happen again. English (all the different varieties of it) is a living language that changes over time.

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