Advice on Scope Comparison (1 Viewer)

Hello All!

First post to the forum, although I've been reading quite a bit trying to get a good handle on digiscoping. I'm in the market for a new scope, which, for right now, I plan on using primarily for birding-- however, in 6 months or so, I'm planning on trying my hand at digiscoping (need a digital camera first. I've been reluctant to give up on my film SLR!) I'm interested in taking sharp pictures with lots of feather detail (where depth of field permits).

Obviously, I would like to purchase a scope that would be beneficial to me in the future, so I'm seeking some advice. I've looked at some photos that have been posted, and have rounded my scope options down to the final four:

1. Swarowski ATS80HD
2. Leica APO 77
3. Kowa 823/824
4. Zeiss Diascope 85

My initial thought is that with the Kowa and Zeiss being in a slightly lower price bracket, I would prefer to purchase one of them and use the difference for an extra eyepiece or whatever. I guess my question is, what does everyone think? Can I go wrong with any of them? Between Kowa and Zeiss, is there some differences I should be aware of that will affect my ability to take sharp bird pics? Or should I kick in the extra money and get the Swarowski or Leica? Thanks, in advance, for anything anyone can suggest!

dcs

Hi and welcome to BF

All four of those scopes would be excellent options and would be great for both birding and digiscoping. My personal preference is the Leica (I had the 77 but now use the 62), I like the view through it and find the dual focus system very easy to use. I don't like the Zeiss (though there are a lot of very happy users on the forum), and am not a big fan of the barel focus on the Swaro. I'd rate them in the following order....
Leica, Swaro, Zeiss, Kowa

Best advice is to find a retailer with all four in stock and try them out side by side, I'm not sure where Owings Mills is but no doubt someone will be able to advice you of a good (fairly) local retailer. Spend a lot of time trying them out before you buy (preferably in different light conditions and on different days) and make sure you get the right one. Also bear in mind that you will need to shell out for a good tripod, I'd recommend a Manfrotto which will set you back about £130-150.

(Second) best advice - don't take other people opinions on these scopes too seriously. They are all great scopes and it's a matter of finding the one for you. A forum member recently went through the whole dilema (ended up going for the Zeiss), the thread may be of some interest to you, but however much you read about them it won't be as helpful to you as trying them for yourself.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=39254

dcs13 said:

I've looked at some photos that have been posted, and have rounded my scope options down to the final four:

1. Swarowski ATS80HD
2. Leica APO 77
3. Kowa 823/824
4. Zeiss Diascope 85

Click to expand...

Welcome to birdforum!

Photography tends to be even more critical it seems than direct viewing. I didn't see the Kowa but I had a demo of the others, and their little brothers - you have to feel the weight to see if you can pack it in the field

From reading on here like you I initially favoured the Zeiss - nice price and everyone writing about it loved the wide field of view of the zoom.

Looking through them with about the same overall mag I didn't feel there was much between the Leica & the Swaro, other than the $. But I preferred either of those by some way to the Zeiss.

That's me, my eyes, my arms to lift 'em. There's no substitute to looking through the scopes at real birds, and having made the choice looking through the actual scope you're buying in direct comparison to the demo one of the same make and model to make sure you aren't getting a dog sample. I did try comparing a few scopes at birdfair but for a newbie trying to make meaningful comparisons in the scrum is hard.

For all that I was more than happy to pay £80 more than the warehouse express price - service costs and in this case is worth paying for IMO.

You can probably take great pictures with any of the scopes you list - you're on the right track with the objective size, apochromatic glass and general quality. You got to get the scopes in front of your eyes and see what you think. People vary in sensitivity to aberrations - I hate chromatic aberration with a rabid vengeance. I saw it immediately on the Leica non-APO (the salesman had it in the wrong demo box and thought it was APO) and told them to get this horrible purple highlight fringing away from me. Other people seem to hardly notice it - certainly some digiscoped photos show levels of it that I would reject immediately for technical quality. I probably miss other faults that stick out a mile for others.

You have to look through them and make this call for your eyes.

Hi dcs13,

On behalf of Admin and the Moderators welcome to Bird Forum :t:

Personally I think any of the models you mention will suit your purpose. It's then just down to personal preference as to design, build quality, colour cast, size and weight.

I've tried out all four and each has one has it's pros and cons - relevance to you is what counts.

Personally I don't like the Leica scopes at all. The optics are bright and sharp enough and I do like the twin focus control, but I don't like the colour cast of the optics and the large bulky heavy design. It's not a model I'd ever consider - though plenty are happy enough with them.

I used to own a Kowa 823 myself and still regret parting with it. It's the best digiscoping scope that I have owned - I still think the best photos I ever took were with this scope - sharpness, focus control, colour cast were all spot on. The only thing against it was the dated heavy design. I needed something lighter to cart around.

The Swarovski (which I own now) I think problaby has the best optics out of them all and can be used in most conditions. The issue for me is the helical focus control which is heavy to use when really for digiscoping you want to touch the scope as little as possible due to vibration.

The Zeiss is very good in just about every respect. It doesn't quite have the build quality of the Swarovski - but once in a case it doesn't really matter that much. The optics are bright and clear, it's compact and lightweight and focus control is very good.

As which to go for really is down to what feels good to you personally.

welcome to the forum. I'd have to ask why you haven't considered the Nikon ED82. Not saying its better than the others but I'd have thought should be auditioned.

I'm fan of Leica scopes but Ian's comment explain why you have to try before you buy because one man's super scope is anothers dud.

to cut a long search short, go for the zeiss!

seriously though, i went through this dilemma recently, and after many hours reading reviews and testing out ALL the different models, i went for the zeiss.

i previously owned the leica, a fine scope indeed, but would still have my zeiss 85 today, as im now into the digiscoping.

do as i did, read all you can about the scopes on your wish list, and above all - GET TESTING!

I use a Leica APO 77, ok it's heavy but if that's not a problem then it's a great scope.
I know of 2 birders in my small group who have problems with the Swarowski, after some rough handling ie. dropping & falling with them the bracket which attaches the scope to the tripod snapped, ok they were fixed very quickly by the makers and are very good scopes just be careful with them. Try and get the best that you can afford, because normally the more you pay the better you get.
cheers Stewart.

Thanks for your help thus far! I did not consider the Nikon ED82 mainly because I needed to cut something and narrow the list down. It seemed that the 4 I chose had the greatest number of "success stories" from what I've read.

I'm having some problem finding these scopes to look at here in my area in the US. I really do not want to buy without getting my paws on the merchandise first. Hopefully, I succeed in finding a place that will at least have a couple of scopes to look at.

dcs

dcs13 said:

Hello All!

First post to the forum, although I've been reading quite a bit trying to get a good handle on digiscoping. I'm in the market for a new scope, which, for right now, I plan on using primarily for birding-- however, in 6 months or so, I'm planning on trying my hand at digiscoping (need a digital camera first. I've been reluctant to give up on my film SLR!) I'm interested in taking sharp pictures with lots of feather detail (where depth of field permits).

Obviously, I would like to purchase a scope that would be beneficial to me in the future, so I'm seeking some advice. I've looked at some photos that have been posted, and have rounded my scope options down to the final four:

1. Swarowski ATS80HD
2. Leica APO 77
3. Kowa 823/824
4. Zeiss Diascope 85

My initial thought is that with the Kowa and Zeiss being in a slightly lower price bracket, I would prefer to purchase one of them and use the difference for an extra eyepiece or whatever. I guess my question is, what does everyone think? Can I go wrong with any of them? Between Kowa and Zeiss, is there some differences I should be aware of that will affect my ability to take sharp bird pics? Or should I kick in the extra money and get the Swarowski or Leica? Thanks, in advance, for anything anyone can suggest!

dcs

Click to expand...

The Zeiss with zoom shows you 50% more than any other scope. I think it's a grat scope and it's a delight for digiscoping with its 85mm objective and long eye relief. If anyone tried to sell a binocular with a 50% smaller field of view - well, would they sell many? Look througha Zeiss next to any other and you'll see what I mean.

But... I agree personal preference is important, and each to their own but don't forget that when you look through any scope - especially at a bird in flight - locating the bird is less than easy. Zeiss makes it easier. Watching a red-rumped swallow two years ago taught me that Zeiss knew what they were doing when they designed that quite amazing scope. And it's none too heavy, either for such a large objective - think about the light gathering, too!

dcs,

This is just to show how different preferences we have... Differences between the scopes are small, but often enough to create strong personal opinions. I don't think you could go very wrong even if you tossed a coin.

scampo said:

The Zeiss with zoom shows you 50% more than any other scope. I think it's a grat scope and it's a delight for digiscoping with its 85mm objective and long eye relief.

Click to expand...

Actually all the other scopes can show you almost 50% more than the Zeiss with its zoom - and with much better edge sharpness.
How the heck?
Well, by using fixed wide-angled 20x (21x on the Kowa) eyepieces, which incidentally are not available for the Zeiss. The Zeiss zoom also has terrible pincushion (at 20x) and its colour cast is IMO much more disturbing than the Leica's.

Like Ian, I have owned a Kowa 823, but I felt that it had some annoying shortcomings/features which made me to switch to the Swarovski AT80HD (the older body). My main complaint was a very off-set eyepiece placement, which made it very difficult to aim - especially with the stay-on-case on. The zoom was optically excellent but it had poor eye-relief which caused severe vignetting in digiscoping and limited field-of-view with spectacles. Kowa has since updated their eyepieces and they should be much better now. I also had some QC issues with my Kowa which raised some doubts against their attention to small details: I selected the eyepieces (a zoom and a 32xWA) each from three samples - almost all of them had a couple of tiny spots/air bubbles in the lenses, which were more or less visible at different zoom/focus settings. Also the focusing mechanism seemed to have some play, which made the prisms (and the image) tilt slightly at the closest setting.

If you ask me, I like the Swaro and Leica the best and if I didn't own a great scope already, I probably would be fool enough to pay the premium for an ATS80HD.

But having said this, the Zeiss Diascope 85 with its zoom is a great combination of quality and versatility - and if the pincushion, soft edges and colour casts don't bother you, it may be the sharpest, brightest and most versatile of them all. Also the Kowa is optically excellent if you find a good sample. It has an excellent selection of fine eyepieces and digiscoping accessories - and it may very well offer the most bang for the buck.
So, there you go - ask different people and get different advice.:t:

Best of luck,

Ilkka

iporali said:

...pincushion, soft edges and colour casts...

Click to expand...

Really, Ilkka you have surprised me. I regularly look through a Nikon 82, a Swaro 65 and my Zeiss 85. The above three descriptions could be applied to the Zeiss but simply not in the rather rhetorical manner you state. On that basis, I would be writing that the Swaro zoom is tube like and has a cold colour cast - which is true but not important, either as the eyes adapt so very quickly. The Swaro has sharp edges and no pincushion, sure - but that's because, like Nikon, they add an aperture to mask off the outer view and in so doing reduce the field a good deal.

The fact remains that the Zeiss zoom is unmatched for field of view and the Zeiss 85 for brightness and sharpness. When you want to find a bird, being able to see 50% more is a boon - simply a boon.

To suggest that a fixed eyepiece provides a useful comparison is a surprise to read, too. I have the Zeiss 30xW and it is a fine eyepiece - but it's rarely used because the Zeiss zoom is so very wide. My son has the Nikon 30xW and, again, it's quite superb - but it is used because the Nikon zoom is less wide.

I know that if a manufacturer tried to sell a pair of bins with 50% less view we'd laugh. But Zeiss produces a class leading product and gets criticised for "pincushion, soft edges and colour cast". As I say - I was surprised to read the comments.

DCs dont mess about get a really great scope the Swarvoski ATS 80HD,with the zoom lens also 20wa and 45 wa unbeatable.
( but really try before buy)

POP

postcardcv said:

(Second) best advice - don't take other people opinions on these scopes too seriously.

Click to expand...

I think that some of these posts have proved my point - the scopes are all excellent optically yet people feel very strongly about them.
One person is amazed by the wide field of view, while the next finds the soft edges very distracting - it's the same feature some see it as a pro others a con. You need to do your own testing and see how each of the scopes feels to you - it's you who'll be using it.

If you look at the prices (with zoom) there is quite a big difference:
Swarovski - £1318
Leica - £1129
Zeiss - £1128
Kowa - £858

Makes the Kowa look very appealing, certainly makes it worth a good look. I know a few people who use this scope and have considered upgraing to the Swarovski, but in side by side comparisions could not see enough difference to justify the extra cost. The money saved in buying the Kowa rather than one of the others could cover the cost of a digiscoping camera and adaptor.

Yikes! I hadn't realised the Kowa had dropped in price that much!

I can't say I had any problems at all with the quality of the optics - it was a superb scope. The 20-60x I had was narrower than the modern zooms or fixed eyepieces, but the new models have redressed that isssue. The size and weight would still be an issue for me but maybe not for others. I tend to walk several miles with the scope on a sling - the Swaro being more compact and lighter is a big boon in that respect not to mention the superb optics.

Just had a quick look at the weights of the four scopes (with zoom)...

Leica - 1975g
Zeiss - 1780g
Kowa - 1760g
Swaro - 1610g

So again a significant difference - if weight is a big issue then the Leica is certainly not the scope to go for. I hadn't realised quite how much lighter the Swaro was - very impressive. though by the time you've got the weight of a tripod too, these differences won't notice too much.

postcardcv said:

Just had a quick look at the weights of the four scopes (with zoom)...

Leica - 1975g
Zeiss - 1780g
Kowa - 1760g
Swaro - 1610g

So again a significant difference - if weight is a big issue then the Leica is certainly not the scope to go for. I hadn't realised quite how much lighter the Swaro was - very impressive. though by the time you've got the weight of a tripod too, these differences won't notice too much.

Click to expand...

All good points, but the Zeiss front element is 85mm in diameter versus 77 / 80mm for the others and glass is heavy stuff. Again - well done, Zeiss: a very bright scope at a very average weight.

But the point remains: who would buy a binocular that had a narrow field? Before I sound like a Zeiss rep, if money is a problem, then I'd say the Kowa with 30x would be as good as any; the Zeiss only comes into its own with its zoom.

scampo said:

But the point remains: who would buy a binocular that had a narrow field? Before I sound like a Zeiss rep, if money is a problem, then I'd say the Kowa with 30x would be as good as any; the Zeiss only comes into its own with its zoom.

Click to expand...

I know you love that Zeiss - but it's not quite as simple a wider fov. I spent a lot of time testing the Zeiss with the zoom and found that the soft edges constantly distracted me from the lovely sharp image in the centre. I was determined to like the Zeiss (after all the good things I'd heard about it), but could not get one with it - I wasn't struck by the wide fov, but by the overall lack of sharpness.

It really is down to personal choice, I'd be very happy with either the Swaro of the Leica, but not so happy with the Zeiss or the Kowa, but I know they are all good scopes.

As for bins with a wide fov, I use 7x42s which to have an excellent fov and stunning edge to edge sharpness. If someone offered me bins with a wider fov that wasn't sharp to the edges I would not swap, but that's just me...

If you do look at the Kowa try the zoom as well as the 30x, it's a good (and very popular) eyepeice, fov isn't everything.

Funny old world, innit?

I don't register the edge softness at all on my Zeiss 65, and love the wide FOV - I find it utterly indispensible.

And - because the viewer always instinctively puts the bird in the centre of the FOV, where the Zeiss is razor sharp (and to be clear, by far the biggest percentage of the view is razor sharp, 85-90% I'd say) - I just don't see a downside to this design decision (I guess that, like software, one man's "design decision" is another man's "bug"!)

Lkewise with the pincushioning - it's there, but I've seen the same thing through Leica and Swarovski zooms (it is, I understand, a feature of any zoom) and to my eyes it's irrelevant. I noticed it - though I called it "barreling" - on the day I received the scope when looking at walls and chimneys (and wrote about it here), but have literally never thought about it since, because I never look at birds that are made up of straight lines!

If this distortion was ever to impact on a bird ID, just ramping up the zoom a bit seems to kill the effect anyway.

The colour cast too, is very much an "eye of the beholder" issue, and I don't believe that it would be commented upon at all unless the viewer was doing a side-by-side scope comparison - again, my personal take is that I appreciate the slight warmth of the view through the Zeiss, and do not regard it as in any way obtrusive or problematic (even my left and right eye see different colours, so I have no problem with that trait in different scopes! )

The brightness and sharpness of the view through my scope is however, something I would not want to be without - to my eyes, the combination of positive traits the Zeiss delivers means that I could look through Leica and Swaro scopes all day and still not see anything which would make me wish I had one of those instead...

Hi DCS,

If you can, its best that you try to get a test of the four scopes you fancy. Most people have an opinion, but it really is best that you look through the scopes and make your own mind up. Try to test them on a day that is not sunny, not hard in UK, this will best show the scopes light gathering ability.
I did this recently and, for me, the Zeiss was best, not only optically,but taking into account its smaller size, larger element and it was much cheaper than the Swaro. The Zeiss has a wider field of veiw and that is very important when birdwatching. I felt that it was brighter than the Swaro in duller conditions, and out performed it at 40+ and above in all conditions.
But this is my opinion.
I`m sure you will be happy with any of the scopes you list. But for me the Zeiss is brilliant in more ways than one.
Cheers John.

Steve,

Thanks again for the comments - it has been a while since we argued about scopes

scampo said:

...I would be writing that the Swaro zoom is tube like and has a cold colour cast - which is true but not important, either as the eyes adapt so very quickly. The Swaro has sharp edges and no pincushion, sure - but that's because, like Nikon, they add an aperture to mask off the outer view and in so doing reduce the field a good deal.

Click to expand...

Except for the pincushion (see below) I agree with you - but as postcardcv confirmed, we like different features. My comment about colour cast was brought out as a response to IanF's rhetorical comment about not liking "at all" the colour of the Leica APO77. I could live with the colour cast of the Zeiss, but I prefer the colour of the Leica & Swaro.

To suggest that a fixed eyepiece provides a useful comparison is a surprise to read, too. I have the Zeiss 30xW and it is a fine eyepiece - but it's rarely used because the Zeiss zoom is so very wide.

Click to expand...

I was talking about fixed 20x eyepieces, which I sometimes find extremely valuable in digiscoping. I am pretty sure most digiscopers are sometimes frustrated about the setup having too much power. A very wide-angled 20x actually gives you 50% more of image area than the Zeiss zoom. I think this fact is worth mentioning because the scope is planned to be used for digiscoping.

I know that if a manufacturer tried to sell a pair of bins with 50% less view we'd laugh. But Zeiss produces a class leading product and gets criticised for "pincushion, soft edges and colour cast". As I say - I was surprised to read the comments.

Click to expand...

Re binoculars:
The Nikon 8x30EII has 58% larger field-of-view than the 8x42HG and 38% larger than the 8x32SE and I am not laughing.

I didn't intend to sound too negative to Zeiss - those are simply the facts that have been listed many times about the Zeiss Diascope and not just by me. Actually I still think if you only want to use one eyepiece for both birdwatching and digiscoping, the Diascope 85FL + the zoom would be my top recommendation (I myself would buy the Swaro, but I have my reasons for that).

Best regards,

Ilkka


ps. The attachments were copied from a web-page, whose address I can't find out. Sorry if the material is copyrighted.
EDIT: The images are Leica 32x, Swaro zoom at 20x, Zeiss 30x (zoom?)