harrier id east coast (1 Viewer)

tittletattler said:

Worth posting this link again (any comments? Tib78? Re: 'never reaching gape'?):

http://rene.dumoulin.oiseaux.net/images/busard.cendre.redu.23g.jpg

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Andy,

I never typed "never reaching the gape" anywhere in this thread. And I don't even need to double-check my posts since I know all too well that the cheek-patch reaches the gape in many juvenile Montagu's harriers...
On the other hand, the cheek-patch reaching the malar area/base of the lower mandible is not common at all in juv Monty's (but it happens!), and paler headed individual are even less prone to show this feature.
The bird in your link is a typical Montagu's in every respect and I don't understand what you might see in that bird that would encourage me to reconsider the ID of the Northumberland bird.

tittletattler said:

Tib78 said:

and the dark cheek-patch largely reaching the malar area is not at all common in Montagu's, but still fairly typical for Pallid.
...

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You are welcome to quote me any time but, please, if you do, do it sensibly. The original sentence was:

Tib78 said:

On the other hand* the combination of rather pale head (pale crown and relatively pale nape) and the dark cheek-patch largely reaching the malar area is not at all common in Montagu's, but still fairly typical for Pallid.

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The word "combination" is the key to understand what I meant there. To sum-up:
- juv Monty's with pale head (pale crown and nape) are common
- juv Monty's with the dark-cheek patch reaching the malar area are scarce
- juv Monty's showing the combination of the 2 above features are, at the very least, extremely rare (I am not even sure I have ever seen one...)

Makes sense?

*hand: the word was mistakenly omitted in my original post

tittletattler said:

Some birds labelled as Pallid are very similar to plate 245 (and the dark patch reaches the gape). The ID for these birds could perhaps be debated.....

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=108886&p=6

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=109127&p=3

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Like Owen said it's the same bird on both pics and it's very clearly a Montagu's!

JANJ said:

Much discussions about this bird and DF based his thinkings on the pattern of the primaries. I my opinion it looks like a good Montagu`s exept for the short p10 (outermost), which is more in line for Pallid, that is to say, p10 falls approx in line with or in between p5/6. However, ther´s certainly some variation to this.
More pic:https://artportalen.se/Mobile/Image/1111660
Also not the two videos in the begining.

Cheers

JanJ

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Thanks for the link Jan. Unfortunately I am not able to open it for some reasons ( I am currently in Tanzania and my connexion is not great...). I'll have a look as soon as I'll be home.
This bird looks certainly closer to Montagu's and, in any case, can't be labelled as Pallid. But I would not labelled this bird as a pure Montagu's so quickly.
What I found very eye-catching first time round is the face pattern: there is something very Pallid-like in that face expression...At the risk of repeating myself: the supercilium does not wrap aound the back of the eye; the sub-ocular crescent is much wider than the supercilium and "digs" deep into the cheek-patch (almost dividing it into 2 halves). And note the pattern of the primaries and especially the inner hand: its trailing edge is rahter pale (much paler than the bars, very unusual for a fresh 1cy autumn Monty's...). Even the outer primaries have a pattern that is rather weird for Montagu's...