falcondude
Well-known member
Lacks of pincushion can be a real problem for me. Don't know how EL can balance both ends out.
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New Swarovski EL? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter kristoffer
- Start date
Lacks of pincushion can be a real problem for me. Don't know how EL can balance both ends out.
henry link
Well-known member
Brock,
No, you didn't misread that. I didn't notice any more pincushion in the 7x42 EDG than in the 8x42 LX L I was comparing it to. I haven't seen the 10x42 EDG.
Today I would use an easy objective test for rectilinear distortion which I didn't know about then. Just look through the binoculars backwards at straight lines. The curve of the lines will be very easy to see although the sign of the distortion will be reversed compared to normal viewing. That is, pincushion distortion will be changed to barrel distortion. The photos below were made through the objectives of two binoculars with the same magnification and apparent field. The one on the left is a Zeiss 8x56 FL with pincushion distortion (barrel in the backwards photo view) and the one on the right is a Fujinon 8x30 FMTR-SX with almost no rectilinear distortion.
There seems to be no agreement among binocular designers about whether to apply pincushion or how much to use.
Henry
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Kevin Purcell
Well-known member
Henry Link said:
I think that's overstating the case, Henry.
There is a rough consensus but it depends on the binocular usage and manufacturer.
For terrestrial-use bins it seems to be widely agreed that adding pinchushion is a good idea (which of course you know) and the vast majority of bins have pincushion added for that reason.
For astro bins and naval bins (like the Fuji FMT designs) there seems to be a consensus to reduce the pincushion to zero. There are no (non-vertical) straight lines in the sky or at sea.
Holger's Rolling Globe paper where he suggests that particular manufacturers "like" particular exponents (i.e. the amount of pincushion to add). I suspect this is a mix a tradition, expected bin usage and (for the odd cases) designer whim. He even outlines the case of Zeiss being reluctant to get on this bandwagon preferring to make "more optically perfect" bins even if people much preferred an added distortion in actual usage. They eventually saw the light.
That said there are the odd cases (like the Nikon LX L 8x42) were they don't seem to be following the "makers traditional value". Designer whim or different requirements?
Perhaps another connection as Kowa and Fujinon (and that odd Nikon) seem to avoid pincushion: perhaps there is a bias in Japanese optical culture for this?
Do you know of any other manufacturers who avoid pincushion systematically today?
Back to the original question: I can't believe the new EL (or EDG or any top birding bin) will not have some pincushion today. It may have a small amount that a user without looking carefully (either through the oculars or through the objectives) might perceive as "no pincushion" when it's "just the right amount of pincushion" to not intrude on the view. We'll see as people start to get them and review them.
henry link
Well-known member
Kevin,
Swarovski's marketing is claiming zero rectilinear distortion for the new EL. They even show a simulated field with a grid of perfectly straight lines. I'll check the EDG 7x42 and 8x42 again, but I believe they also have no or virtually no pincushion. As you say, the distortion may be quite small so subjective impressions may not be accurate. Hopefully I or somebody else will be able to photograph the distortion in the EDG and the new Swarovskis so we'll know for sure.
Henry
Swarovski's marketing is claiming zero rectilinear distortion for the new EL. They even show a simulated field with a grid of perfectly straight lines. I'll check the EDG 7x42 and 8x42 again, but I believe they also have no or virtually no pincushion. As you say, the distortion may be quite small so subjective impressions may not be accurate. Hopefully I or somebody else will be able to photograph the distortion in the EDG and the new Swarovskis so we'll know for sure.
Henry
ticl2184
Well-known member
Hi Henry
You may remember we discussed the New EL earlier this year after I noticed the rolling globe effect when I tested them. You used a useful chess board analogy to explain the effect.
Firstly is it possible to produce a binocular with edge to edge sharpness without a pincushion or rolling affect ? Secondly I was curious as to your background in the subject as you sound very well informed ?
Tim
You may remember we discussed the New EL earlier this year after I noticed the rolling globe effect when I tested them. You used a useful chess board analogy to explain the effect.
Firstly is it possible to produce a binocular with edge to edge sharpness without a pincushion or rolling affect ? Secondly I was curious as to your background in the subject as you sound very well informed ?
Tim
Kevin Purcell
Well-known member
ticl2184 read the thread on Rolling ball (or globe) effect.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=74727
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=140202
To avoid the Rolling ball effect you need some pincushion distortion to compensate for the barrel distortion introduced by our visual systems (which seems to differ from person to person).
Holger's web page (with pictures!) is perhaps the best graphical demonstration of his findings.
http://www.holgermerlitz.de/globe/distortion.html
[quote-Henry Link] Swarovski's marketing is claiming zero rectilinear distortion for the new EL.[/quote]
Which I still find hard to beleive is actually true (though I don't disbelieve you that they said it). I would believe "Swarovski's marketing is claiming zero perceived rectilinear distortion for the new EL.". Perhaps they just use the simpler phrasing to save themselves explaining that their users vision has barrel distortion (to the evident disbelief of their users).
Until someone actually uses them we're left not knowing for sure.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=74727
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=140202
To avoid the Rolling ball effect you need some pincushion distortion to compensate for the barrel distortion introduced by our visual systems (which seems to differ from person to person).
Holger's web page (with pictures!) is perhaps the best graphical demonstration of his findings.
http://www.holgermerlitz.de/globe/distortion.html
[quote-Henry Link] Swarovski's marketing is claiming zero rectilinear distortion for the new EL.[/quote]
Which I still find hard to beleive is actually true (though I don't disbelieve you that they said it). I would believe "Swarovski's marketing is claiming zero perceived rectilinear distortion for the new EL.". Perhaps they just use the simpler phrasing to save themselves explaining that their users vision has barrel distortion (to the evident disbelief of their users).
Until someone actually uses them we're left not knowing for sure.
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kristoffer
Used Register
So, the new EL will have rolling ball? Not good if that is the case, for me.
falcondude
Well-known member
That's my concern as well. But the new EL will reduce the close focus from 8ft to 5 ft, which is a big plus.
brocknroller
porromaniac
Not everybody is sensitive to "rolling ball" or as Holger likes to call it, the "globe effect".
Some don't see it even when there is no pincushion, and others see the effect, but their brains quickly adapt to it.
Chess and checkers players like myself, however, can have a hard time adjusting to its bulging grid, having spent many hours looking down at flat parallel lines.
The full sized Nikon LX and LX L have so much "globe effect" that it turns into "celestial sphere effect" for stargazing. Even the sky looks curved.
However, when I used the 10x42 EDG (for two weeks), I didn't find the amount of rolling ball to be anywhere nearly as distracting as it was with the LX/LX L/Premier series.
It was about the same amount as in the 8x32 LX, which I find almost unnoticeable.
I can't remember if I used a telephone pole to test for pincushion in the EDG (lines will bend inward at the edges), but the panning was smooth.
The EDG EPs are not recycled from the Premier series, it is completely redesigned.
The ergonomics of the EDG are the best I've tried in any roof bin. Most closed bridge roofs flop around in my big mitts, but the EDG, I could hold steady even at 10x.
My only gripe was the loose focuser cap, which they have now fixed.
If you hankering for an EL (now available in 3-D Swarovision), and don't have a pre-existing brand loyalty, I suggest you try and EDG first.
If you buy and EDG, be sure to mention my name so I can get my commission check from Nikon.
Just kidding, Charles.
The Kerreran
Has hat, will stand in the rain
I've had the chance to look through the new ELs, and I carefully [and, I admit, rather cynically] checked the 'fancy flat field with no distortion at all', with the aid of fences, posts, brick walls, etc. Fully expecting to find the flaw, I was amazed to find nothing whatsoever - no rolling ball, no pincushion, nothing. It was just like using your eyes. 'Shocked' would be a good description of my reaction!
I also measured the close focus - 115cm for the 10x, and 110cm for the 8.5x. For those of you who think Imperial, that's about 45" and 43" - ie. less than 4 feet on a 42mm binocular.....
Now, these were the 'handmade' ones, not the full production version they've been having such fun getting right, so maybe come January things won't be quite so good, but I wouldn't like to bet on it.
Oh yeah, it occurs to me I haven't actually stated the following before - I am not, nor is anyone I know or am related to, in the employ of Swarovski, or indeed any other optics manufacturer.
I don't even own any Swarovski products. Not even a glass. Or one of those crystal teddy bears they do.
spacepilot
Well-known member
I've had the chance to look through the new ELs, and I carefully [and, I admit, rather cynically] checked the 'fancy flat field with no distortion at all', with the aid of fences, posts, brick walls, etc. Fully expecting to find the flaw, I was amazed to find nothing whatsoever - no rolling ball, no pincushion, nothing. It was just like using your eyes. 'Shocked' would be a good description of my reaction!
I also measured the close focus - 115cm for the 10x, and 110cm for the 8.5x. For those of you who think Imperial, that's about 45" and 43" - ie. less than 4 feet on a 42mm binocular.....
Now, these were the 'handmade' ones, not the full production version they've been having such fun getting right, so maybe come January things won't be quite so good, but I wouldn't like to bet on it.
Oh yeah, it occurs to me I haven't actually stated the following before - I am not, nor is anyone I know or am related to, in the employ of Swarovski, or indeed any other optics manufacturer.
I don't even own any Swarovski products. Not even a glass. Or one of those crystal teddy bears they do.
That's it!!! I'm going to get a piggy bank right now and start saving for a Swarovision!!!! By my calculation, one pair of those babies only cost about 120lbs of US quarters. If the US dollars rise, it cost even less than that. :cat:
Ning
I'm no optics expert, but I recently compared the 8x32 EL with the 8x42; I got the impression there was more distortion with the 8x42. I guess I feel that the 8x32 already gives me a view that is "like using your eyes". I notice that there is no new 8x32 el planned--AFAIK. So do you know if this is mostly an issue for those who favor the 8x42?
Also, how fast did you find the focus on the new el? I have seen some say it is longer/slower; another claimed it was a new "accelerating focus".
Best,
Jim
kristoffer
Used Register
wow, sounds promising and expensive. But, no 8x32? Really?
brocknroller
porromaniac
You're going to need something bigger than a piggy bank to keep those 120 lbs. of quarters in.
I use large pickled pig's feet jars:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3410/3278665101_7a97ecb1e9.jpg
After trying the EDG, I changed the label from "EL Fund" to "(H)EDG Fund".
I've had to raid my (H)EDG Fund so many times during the past year, that after the holidays, I'll be starting from scratch at 5.67 grams.
LOL! I wish someone would say something really, really bad about the new EL´s. I had convinced myself that I would never want a pair. My own hedge fund has run out, so I´d have to sell all my binos and live the rest of my life with one pair of (new) EL´s. If this is what happens to a lot of obsessives, the net will be awash with good deals on secondhand binos over the next few months. (Someone, please tell me the optics of the new EL´s are no improvement on those of Nikon EII´s.....After trying the EDG, I changed the label from "EL Fund" to "(H)EDG Fund".
I've had to raid my (H)EDG Fund so many times during the past year, that after the holidays, I'll be starting from scratch at 5.67 grams.
)Can´t wait to read your assessment, FF!
spacepilot
Well-known member
You're going to need something bigger than a piggy bank to keep those 120 lbs. of quarters in.
I use large pickled pig's feet jars:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3410/3278665101_7a97ecb1e9.jpg
After trying the EDG, I changed the label from "EL Fund" to "(H)EDG Fund".
I've had to raid my (H)EDG Fund so many times during the past year, that after the holidays, I'll be starting from scratch at 5.67 grams.
Lol, good one, Brock.
The pre-teen sized glass jar is just what I need to hold my Nuevo EL Fondo. If I keep that thing in the bedroom, the missus might pitch in too, if for no other reason than trying to get rid of it as soon as possible.
I was going to save for a pair of EDG after reading the reviews, but just got informed by fireform that they don't have the water-repellent coating like the other "alphas". If I'm going to get a pair mainly as rainy-day backup for my SE's, I really would like to have that feature.
Ning
Me too. If I keep them someone will be getting a good deal on my 8x SEs or 8x32 FLs.
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