Ruddy Duck cull continuing (3 Viewers)

Adam W · Feb 19, 2012

birdboybowley said:
In a perfect world then yes, but not if the reason they are declining is habitat destruction, hunting, etc. What would be the point? In that case surely having a healthy population somewhere is better than no population at all.

Yes quite true, but would a healthy population where they arent supposed to be be better than nothing if it just caused another problem for that countries native birds?

A healthy population of Mandarin here is certainly better than non at all in the world provided it isnt causing other problems(which would appear to be the case at the moment) but would simply swapping one problem for another be the answer if it was found that Manadrins did cause a problem to our native birds? In my opinon no it wouldnt, the best thing then(if not always) would be to look at the real cause of the problem,habitat destruction etc.

david kelly · Feb 19, 2012

birdboybowley said:
But then using your own logic, is not the world population of Mandarin in more danger than Tawny Owl, Goldeneye or Stock Dove? I'm sure I read somewhere that the numbers in Britain are almost equal to the remaining world pop so surely our 'non-native' birds are more important - talking on a global scale

I think this is a fallacy, the Eastern Asian population of Mandarins is over 70,000 birds with 7,000 in the UK. This is according to WWT.

David

AlfArbuthnot · Feb 19, 2012

happigumble said:
But isn't it better that we have groups of people, whatever their specialism, asking questions of the specialists? As the cull has gone ahead then the specialists have clearly been listened too, but a healthy debate and accountability can't be a bad thing.

Exept that those asking the questions very rarely accept the answers unless they happen to be what they want to hear, as they have a pre-constructed opinion. So the questions they ask are leading questions.

happigumble said:
(It is also my understanding that scientists are involved in Animal Aid's work although I don't know which specialisms)

I think it's safe to assume that they not in the same league as the people at BirdLife, NE and RSPB.

AlfArbuthnot · Feb 19, 2012

birdboybowley said:
But then using your own logic, is not the world population of Mandarin in more danger than Tawny Owl, Goldeneye or Stock Dove? I'm sure I read somewhere that the numbers in Britain are almost equal to the remaining world pop so surely our 'non-native' birds are more important - talking on a global scale

That's the idea of translocating species to new areas where they have a better chance of survival, such as Iberian Lynx to Britain. But I suppose there is a difference to deliberate and controlled acts such as this, and happy accidents like Mandarin. Unless they're planned, we don't know if we we've got a Chinese Water Deer situation on our hands, or a Muntjac situation. Culling and eradicating what we don't want reasserts that control (same as with Coypu).

StuartReeves · Feb 19, 2012

With regard to the scientific case for the cull, it would have been much easier for Defra to choose to do nothing. That way, they would not have had to spend government money in a way which would potentially earn them bad publicity. A Ruddy Duck cull was never going to win anyone any votes, so the justification and the scientific case for the cull must have been pretty compelling for the cull to have gone ahead.

Pete Mella · Feb 19, 2012

ChrisKten said:
I think I've got a sense of the thinking behind the cull. But a one-sided argument isn't really an argument at all; so I've also read other informed opinions (AnimalAid).

For the love of all that is good never consider those rabid, know-nothing, bunny-hugging cretins at Animal Aid as having "informed opinions"!

angusmcoatup · Feb 19, 2012

Adam W said:
Yes if it ever comes to a situation where Stock Doves start to suffer a decline as a result of Mandarins.

And where possible, surely its better to control the spread of invasive species rather than wait to see what happens.I'm guessing any Australian and New Zealand (amongst other) readers are shaking their heads at the idea of leaving non-native species to their own devices.

As a simplified example, there are now indications the growth of the Muntjac population is affecting our already beleagured Nightingale numbers, as they strip out dense undergrowth. The buzz of seeing a Muntjac could never compensate for the sadness of losing our Nightingales.

Adam W · Feb 19, 2012

angusmcoatup said:
And where possible, surely its better to control the spread of invasive species rather than wait to see what happens.I'm guessing any Australian and New Zealand (amongst other) readers are shaking their heads at the idea of leaving non-native species to their own devices.

I couldnt agree more mate,I'm all for not taking any risks any hint of even a possible problem and get rid I say but sadly there are too many 'bunny huggers' out there that dont see it that way.

I can happily enjoy watching any of our invasive species in their own right(few things look better than a drake Mandarin) but as you rightly say our native species suffering is never an acceptable price to pay for that.

Richard Klim · Feb 19, 2012

david kelly said:
I think this is a fallacy, the Eastern Asian population of Mandarins is over 70,000 birds with 7,000 in the UK. This is according to WWT.

Indeed. BirdLife International considers the population to be 'very large' and not in rapid decline, and classifies it as a species of Least Concern (not even Near Threatened).

But somehow(?) it's definitely become enshrined in birding folklore that the British Mandarin Duck population has special conservation significance.

birdboybowley · Feb 19, 2012

Guess that's the problem with folklore Richard: enough people say it, then everyone believes it's true. Bit like religion really

Jan-Paul Charteris · Feb 19, 2012

Tideliner said:
...probably the display and bold head markings of the NA ruddy duck trigger a strong positive reaction in female WHDs and may be connected with their common ancestor.

Be an interesting study as to whether male White-headed Ducks with more extensive black on the head has more reproductive or mating success than whiter headed individuals

I commented on another thread how female Ruddies seem to go for male Argentine Ruddy when I've seen escaped individuals of the latter in the breeding season...they are very dominant

Pete Mella · Feb 19, 2012

Richard Klim said:
Indeed. BirdLife International considers the population to be 'very large' and not in rapid decline, and classifies it as a species of Least Concern (not even Near Threatened).

But somehow(?) it's definitely become enshrined in birding folklore that the British Mandarin Duck population has special conservation significance.

From The Naturalized Animals of Britain and Ireland (Christopher Lever, 2009):

The future of the Mandarin Duck in the Far East has for long been in doubt. After the Second World Wr it appeared to be dying out, due largely to the deforestation of its two main breeding grounds - the Tung Ling and Kirin Forests. Pedatory animals of the cat family are numerous in China, and birds of prey such as Black Kites also take a toll of the Mandarin Duck population. The early 21st-century estimate of the world population (including that in Britain and in continental Europe) was 25,180 pairs, of which 13,340 were in Japan, where the population has recently staged a recovery and is now stable. Nevertheless, the Mandarin Duck is listed by the IUCN as Near Threatened. The British population, which may exceed the whole of that on the Far East outside Japan is thus of considerable conservation significance.

However this seems to not have been changed for the updated 2009 edition, as the IUCN website indicates it was demoted to Least Concern in 2004.

Jan-Paul Charteris · Feb 19, 2012

Adam W said:
I couldnt agree more mate,I'm all for not taking any risks any hint of even a possible problem and get rid I say but sadly there are too many 'bunny huggers' out there that dont see it that way.

I can happily enjoy watching any of our invasive species in their own right(few things look better than a drake Mandarin) but as you rightly say our native species suffering is never an acceptable price to pay for that.

Nitpicking, but invasive is more Collared Dove and Cattle Egret, introduced is the contention. Where would we draw the line though? Little Owl, Canada Goose, Greylag and Barnacle Geese, Pheasant, Red-legged Partridge etc are all introduced. To justify wiping out Mandarins and not those, there'd have to be some evidense that they will cause damage, and that the numbers are low enough compared to the others that there will be a successful 'eradication'. I'd imagine Ring-necked Parakeets more of a problem than Mandarin to be honest. As far as I've noticed mandarins terriorial behaviour is more on the water, or males chasing a female in flight. They'll take advantage of an empty nest hole, but not neccessarily compete for it. maybe they're just filling in a niche left as Stock Doves decline due to other reasons

Pete Mella · Feb 19, 2012

Jan-Paul Charteris said:
Nitpicking, but invasive is more Collared Dove and Cattle Egret, introduced is the contention.

Actually, counter-nitpicking, but invasive does mean introduced in this instance. As Wikipedia states:

The first definition, the most used, applies to introduced species (also called "non-indigenous" or "non-native") that adversely affect the habitats and bioregions they invade economically, environmentally, and/or ecologically.

Jan-Paul Charteris · Feb 19, 2012

Pete Mella said:
Actually, counter-nitpicking, but invasive does mean introduced in this instance. As Wikipedia states:

Fair do's

wasn't that I had a problem with what Adam said anyway, I agree with many of his posts. I still think of invasive as under it's own steam, whereas species like House Mice on islands and Parakeets are also invasive but should perhaps be prefixed by introduced. Let's face it, even if Collared Dove are slightly to blame for Turtle Dove decline (maybe), we'll never look upon it the same as Ruddy vs White-headed, or Mink vs Black-necked Grebe

John Cantelo · Feb 19, 2012

Bottom line -
If the pro-cull lobby are right then WHD is preserved as a species. If they're wrong some ducks die earlier than they would otherwise have done. It sometimes seems as if anti-cull pressure groups think that Ruddy Ducks will somehow live for ever rather than die jst as messily (or worse) than being shot.
On the other hand, if anti-cull lobyists are right, then Ruddy Ducks (undoubtedly an attractive bird) will spread throughout Europe without harm to an equally attractive species. However if they're wrong, and the clear concensus of informed opinion suggests that they are, this will be at the price of extinguishing WHD from our continent (and possibly beyond).

Either way we take a risk, but I know which risk I'd prefer to take. If, as some have suggested in the past, we wait for more information, more evidence and more proof then the task of eliminating Ruddy Duck will be impossible. And let's not be in any doubt that this play-it-out-as-long-as-we-can to make the task impossible was exactly the strategy used by some who opposed the cull.

The uncomfortable truth is that there will always be a conflict between what may broadly be deemed 'animal lovers' and 'environmentalists'; the first instinct of 'animal lovers', for example, will be to release captive Mink from the evil clutches of the fur trade, but environmentalists will be more circumspect and will take into account the wider ecosystem. Each has a good moral and philosophical case, but, ultimately, one course of action will lead to an impoverished environment and the other will not,

ChrisKten · Feb 19, 2012

Pete Mella said:
For the love of all that is good never consider those rabid, know-nothing, bunny-hugging cretins at Animal Aid as having "informed opinions"!

LOL, sounds a bit like you don't like them, or have I misinterpreted your meaning

They seem like a harmless bunch to me:

The group campaigns peacefully against all forms of animal abuse and promotes a cruelty-free lifestyle

Their website is also a useful place, as there's a page dedicated to Culls; I'd have no idea of most of the Culls if it wasn't for that webpage. Oh, it's here if you're interested:

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/wildlife//2177//

Although I'd guess it's only me that was unaware of the aforementioned Culls|=)|

Pete Mella · Feb 19, 2012

ChrisKten said:
LOL, sounds a bit like you don't like them, or have I misinterpreted your meaning

They seem like a harmless bunch to me:

Their website is also a useful place, as there's a page dedicated to Culls; I'd have no idea of most of the Culls if it wasn't for that webpage. Oh, it's here if you're interested:

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/wildlife//2177//

Although I'd guess it's only me that was unaware of the aforementioned Culls|=)|

Actually, Chris they aren't harmless in the slightest. Far from it. They're exactly the kind of animal rights extremists that cause these messes in the first place. They're people that would claim, for example that an individual mink's right to life and freedom in a foreign ecosystem is more important than safeguarding the environment itself. They constantly campaign against conservation, with a woeful lack of ecological insight, slighting environmentalists as having some kind of bizarre fascist agenda against non-native organisms. But sadly, despite not knowing what the hell they're on about, they're constantly wheeled out by the press to spiel their naive viewpoints in some misguided attempt at media impartiality.

I'm all for things being done as humanely as possible, but AnimalAid go way beyond that. They're a dangerous group of idiots who do more damage to the conservation movement in this country than virtually any other, and whose views as a single-issue pressure group based on bunny-hugging naivety should never be taken as more than they are.

ChrisKten · Feb 19, 2012

Pete Mella said:
Actually, Chris they aren't harmless in the slightest. Far from it. They're exactly the kind of animal rights extremists that cause these messes in the first place. They're people that would claim, for example that an individual mink's right to life and freedom in a foreign ecosystem is more important than safeguarding the environment itself. They constantly campaign against conservation, with a woeful lack of ecological insight, slighting environmentalists as having some kind of bizarre fascist agenda against non-native organisms. But sadly, despite not knowing what the hell they're on about, they're constantly wheeled out by the press to spiel their naive viewpoints in some misguided attempt at media impartiality.

I'm all for things being done as humanely as possible, but AnimalAid go way beyond that. They're a dangerous group of idiots who do more damage to the conservation movement in this country than virtually any other, and whose views as a single-issue pressure group based on bunny-hugging naivety should never be taken as more than they are.

I was being a bit of a Troll with my last post, Pete; I've not done that for ages|=)|

I actually only found their website a few weeks ago; I got a link from a google search on the Ruddy Duck cull. I've not read anything apart from that which related to the Ruddy Ducks; I guess I should explore their website further.

Oh, in case anyone is wondering; I'm not an Animal Rights Activist, I'm much too lazy for that|=)|

Pete Mella · Feb 19, 2012

ChrisKten said:
I was being a bit of a Troll with my last post, Pete; I've not done that for ages|=)

Naughty!

I was suspecting a whiff of devil's advocate about some of your posts, hence the fact I was being slightly harsher than I may otherwise have been

But I have a bit of a red spot when it comes to Animal Aid, I've been a bit extreme above on reflection, but they don't half talk some rubbish and do their best to set the conservation movement back with their drivel.

Ruddy Duck cull continuing (3 Viewers)

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