Ruddy Duck cull continuing (1 Viewer)

Colin · Feb 12, 2012

So, what is the state of play with the Ruddy Duck eradication program? When did it start and how far has it got? Is there any idea of how many are left to cull? I still see the odd one or two from time to time. Best number in 2011 was 3 together. Not seen one this year yet.

Swindon Addick · Feb 12, 2012

arniemonkey said:
i bet these tossers who want em killed were wanting all the cows and sheep killed during the bs mad cow disease fiasco...

"Mad cow disease" (a.k.a. CJD) killed a significant number of people. It's a particularly nasty way to die, too. I have a friend who lost her father to CJD during the "fiasco". Try telling her it was all bs.

Of course, if you genuinely believe that a cow's life is worth as much as a person's then killing thousands of cows to save a few people isn't something you're going to support. And maybe you think it was all their fault for eating meat in the first place. But for most of us it's part of being human to want to take steps to save people's lives. As long as the animals were killed humanely (which they were), then this particular vegetarian is in favour of killing as many of them as is necessary.

Richard Klim · Feb 12, 2012

Colin said:
So, what is the state of play with the Ruddy Duck eradication program? When did it start and how far has it got? Is there any idea of how many are left to cull? I still see the odd one or two from time to time. Best number in 2011 was 3 together. Not seen one this year yet.

The Ruddy Duck Project webpage should give you the picture (see the bulletins etc - particularly the latest, #7):
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?pageid=244

A good, (fairly) recent overview is Henderson 2009 (Progress of the UK Ruddy Duck eradication programme, British Birds 102(12): 680-690).

Dog · Feb 12, 2012

If you think introduced species are not a problem you aught to talk to my wife's Godfather Brian Green who has spent the last 20 odd years trying to find ways to eradicate the Cane Toad in Australia.

Mike.

Pete Mella · Feb 12, 2012

arniemonkey said:
ok i see a few points here, agree with the fact i shouldnt say tossers and id never doubt humans are the worst animal but i dont like killing things end of story really..ps what are the ruddies dloing thats so bad if its breeding with other ducks ..wow are they the only ones that do that?? we do it all the time.....disagree with that and your shot down in flames "racists" lol

I fail to see how inter-racial relationships in humans is in any way related or analagous to species conservation in ducks. There really is no real parallel between the two.

In this debate we're talking about whether or not we sit back and allow species to potentially become extinct through the careless actions of humans introducing new species into ecosystems, to the detriment of other species that have not evolved the defences to coexist with them (often this is in terms of predation, but in the ruddy/WHD case it's sexual outcompetition). Species conservation has nothing at all to do with the petty prejudices of some people who have objections to members of the same species as them who have a few genes' difference that makes their skin a different colour.

Objections to the ruddy cull should be about whether it's necessary (Are ruddies really that much of a threat? Is the WHD really that rare any more?), and effective (Will it really work? Would money be better channeled elsewhere?), not about anthropomorphisms like what have the poor ruddies done to "deserve" it, and conservationists being "racist".

Colin · Feb 12, 2012

Richard Klim said:
The Ruddy Duck Project webpage should give you the picture (see the bulletins etc - particularly the latest, #7):
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?pageid=244

A good, (fairly) recent overview is Henderson 2009 (Progress of the UK Ruddy Duck eradication programme, British Birds 102(12): 680-690).

Thanks Richard. The latest bulletin (7) makes interesting reading. Seems that the UK population is around 90 birds but the culling stopped last March. There are funds being made to start again this year. I wonder how much breeding took place last summer. Meanwhile the French population has been steadily increasing and is only just starting to decline with only 101 birds culled. What could happen is that while the UK population may decrease towards zero, there could be immigrants from Europe. This could be quite an expensive business to get the last ones and to continue the monitoring for years to come. It is always difficult to get the last few.

James_Owen · Feb 12, 2012

luke said:
Had a person bring up this topic whilst I was doing a talk to over 100 people a few weeks ago. The person was obviously trying to cause trouble but I said this to the crowd. If you knew what Grey Squirrels would do to Red Squirrels back when they were at cullable levels, what would have you done about the Greys??

I prefer to ask folks how they'd feel if it were an iconic British bird that was somehow under potentially severe threat due to a introduced non-native, a bird like the Osprey for example, imagine them gone as a distinct species, after all that effort to support their recovery. Animal Liberation Front members aside, I bet all the naysayers would feel differently then.
Unfortunately, WHD is some duck in Spain most of us won't bother going to see, it's a bit out of sight, out of mind.

But there again, you gotta be careful. You never know what sort of bridges you might be burning in your local birding scene if you come out big time on one side or the other on the RD cull. Most bird clubs I know wouldn't be too chuffed to have a member drawing attention to their club's Ruddy sightings.
So it might be best to keep quiet in public, and let your conscience do what it will in private.

Trystan · Feb 14, 2012

Very much on the fence over ruddy ducks but one thing that occurs to me when we say that we created the ruddy duck problem is, why was the white headed duck so rare in the first place?

Hotspur · Feb 14, 2012

Trystan said:
Very much on the fence over ruddy ducks but one thing that occurs to me when we say that we created the ruddy duck problem is, why was the white headed duck so rare in the first place?

Hunting and habitat destruction/fragmentstion

arniemonkey · Feb 16, 2012

so with all the talk no ones really answered the question i asked is itto save all the white head ducks we have in england then????all none of them....and the racist comment was a laugh ..your clever talk doesnt pick up on a joke i see... and the comment with the mad cow disease wasnt all done decently ..shooting sheep in a field from distance and klling pets isnt humane...

knotsbirder · Feb 16, 2012

arniemonkey said:
so with all the talk no ones really answered the question i asked is itto save all the white head ducks we have in england then????all none of them....and the racist comment was a laugh ..your clever talk doesnt pick up on a joke i see... and the comment with the mad cow disease wasnt all done decently ..shooting sheep in a field from distance and klling pets isnt humane...

Stop being silly that question was answered many times... :brains: Try re-reading, the Ruddies originated from British populations, and now they are threatening White-headed Ducks in Spain, so it is our responsibility to right this problem... :gn:

As an aside, I was talking to a "top brass" at the local Wildlife Trust and apparently DEFRA know of the remaining 59 birds, they've even given them names, so enjoy them while you can.

Sam :t:

Swindon Addick · Feb 16, 2012

arniemonkey said:
and the comment with the mad cow disease wasnt all done decently ..shooting sheep in a field from distance and klling pets isnt humane...

Ah, I see. I did wonder. You've clearly got mad cow disease mixed up with foot and mouth disease, since the sheep with scrapie (which is what mad cow disease is called in sheep) were slaughtered humanely and were certainly not shot from distance. No farmer would tolerate that happening.

As for the way FMD was handled, well the farming lobby put a lot of pressure on the government to get the disease under control before it wiped out every herd in the country. The animals had to be killed on the farms, because moving them to an abbatoir would have meant a risk of spreading the disease even further.

I shall leave my response there as there really doesn't seem to be much point trying to explain any further. Lots of people have answered your original question and you don't seem to be interested in listening.

happigumble · Feb 17, 2012

At the risk of being too sentimental, I saw a male and a female ruddy duck this morning and considered myself very fortunate to be able to look at them. My husband hadn't seen a ruddy before and we both remarked that we should make the most of it.

I have read other threads on here about the culling of ruddies and think it is a shame that people who are against culling are painted as rather ignorant and silly. Yes, there is a bigger picture and culling can only be part of it. Preservation of habitat would surely have more impact and go further to rectify the actions of man. To me, culling sometimes seems to have a rather distasteful political slant intended to appease powerful lobbies, governments etc. It seems that shooting at stuff to solve the problem is the first line of defence rather than a last resort. (and Yes, I have read the literature)

However, these are just my opinions and I'm sure that many people reading this will consider me to be misguided and misinformed. I like watching red squirrels in Scotland and greys on my birdtable; I like seeing Canada geese, Egyptian geese, feral greylags and pheasants whilst hoping to spot migrating waders and visiting hoopoe.

And unashamedly enjoy watching a pair of ruddies bobbing along on the lake. :-O

Bob Philpott · Feb 17, 2012

Happigumble, I am sure you are not to sentimental but unfortunately this was a species problem rather than a habitat problem and wouldn't have been sorted by dealing with habitat issues

happigumble · Feb 17, 2012

Bob Philpott said:
Happigumble, I am sure you are not to sentimental but unfortunately this was a species problem rather than a habitat problem and wouldn't have been sorted by dealing with habitat issues

I am sure that is the case now, but weren't the number of WHD in Spain declining due to loss of habitat & hunting before the hybridisation with Ruddies became a problem?

It just seems so futile that when there are a lot of something we say that they are a nuisance/vermin and then wait until there are only a few to start campaigns to save them e.g. house sparrows, red kites. I expect that in 100 years time there will be a ruddy duck reintroduction program!

Farnboro John · Feb 17, 2012

happigumble said:
I am sure that is the case now, but weren't the number of WHD in Spain declining due to loss of habitat & hunting before the hybridisation with Ruddies became a problem?

It just seems so futile that when there are a lot of something we say that they are a nuisance/vermin and then wait until there are only a few to start campaigns to save them e.g. house sparrows, red kites. I expect that in 100 years time there will be a ruddy duck reintroduction program!

Perhaps nobody has made it clear to you, Ruddy Ducks are North American and they are common in North America. They do not belong here and once they have been eradicated it will be an offence to release them into the wild - so no reintroduction progamme.

John

happigumble · Feb 17, 2012

Farnboro John said:
Perhaps nobody has made it clear to you, Ruddy Ducks are North American and they are common in North America. They do not belong here and once they have been eradicated it will be an offence to release them into the wild - so no reintroduction progamme.

John

Yes, thank you, I am aware of the origins and the history of the Ruddy Duck, as I am aware of other escapees of collections that are allowed to exist in Britain and are now considered to be part of British wildlife. Just because I have a different view with regards to the cull does not make me unable to read articles on the argument, understand the position of those in favour of the cull and make my own mind up on the matter. Although I do not agree with it, I understand your point of view but don't make the assumption that you don't know what you are talking about.

Cheshire Birder · Feb 17, 2012

Farnboro John said:
.... once they have been eradicated it will be an offence to release them into the wild - so no reintroduction progamme.

John

I thought it was already an offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 to introduce any non-native species into the wild in Britain.

CB

John Cantelo · Feb 17, 2012

Ruddy Ducks do seem to be more catholic in the choice of habitats than WHDs so, unchecked, it seems likely that they would have genetically swamped the more particular WHD. Hence the (mistaken) view of some that 'evolution' should take its toll and WHD go extinct (in Europe at least).

Habitat destruction may well have been an element in the decline of WHD in Spain, but I do not think it was a critical one. Given that there is less suitable habitat around in Spain today than in the 1970s/80s (or earlier) but rather more WHDs then clearly other issues had a greater impact. Accordingly I don't think that habitat management alone would have saved WHD. Currently most WHD sites in Spain are officially protected and it is this, plus judicious reintroduction, that has raised population levels to the current level. The bottom line is that "we are where we are" and that in the current circumstances only a well organised and thorough cull of Ruddy Duck - not protection of WHDs or their habitats - will save them from regional extinction (or worse). As I commented previously my view is that as we humans caused this problem we have a moral obligation to resolve it. You may well have a different view,but if so then you are obliged to accept that without culling WHD will become extinct over a significant portion of its range. Put it another way, personally I am willing to eat meat and thus to countenance animals may be killed to sustain me. The moral argument for killing Ruddy Ducks, however regrettable, to help preserve a whole species strikes me as a much stronger moral position. Admittedly, if you are a vegetarian this argument may not convince ......

happigumble · Feb 17, 2012

John Cantelo said:
Admittedly, if you are a vegetarian this argument may not convince ......

Yes, I am so at least I'm being consistent!

Thank you for the explanation about the habitat....good to know.

I do understand the argument for a cull and luckily for me, I can sit here and exercise my right to disagree as I am not the one who has to make the decision or pull the trigger.

It was mentioned in an earlier post that unless we stop people from keeping exotics then this type of situation will just keep happening again. So we cull the Ruddy duck but we still have collections of exotic birds, mammals etc in the uk which could result in problems with invasive species. If I have to concede that a cull is necessary then surely something has to be done to ensure that the problem doesn't keep happening. Culling wild birds/animals just because we can't stop making a mess of things does not seem like a reasonable plan to me.

Ruddy Duck cull continuing (1 Viewer)

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