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Pied or White Wagtail. UK (1 Viewer)

CyberRob

CyberRob

Well-known member
Hi

I'm totally confused by this Wagtail that I saw in Cheshire this morning. According to Collins: The Pied has a glossy back whereas the White has a Grey back. The White has a sharp border between the nape and mantle, the Pied does not.

I searched the internet and that just confused me more.

Is it a Pied Wagtail or a White Wagtail?

Your comments are always appreciated

Thanks

Rob
 

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Yes, it's Pied Wagtail (Motacilla alba yarrellii), in which the male has a black mantle, the female a dark grey and often rather "blotchy" mantle. "White Wagtail" is the continental race (Motacilla alba alba) which has a uniformly paler grey mantle and passes through this country in much smaller numbers on migration. They are distinct races but not separate species.

There are other differences, but to be honest I haven't committed them to memory as the mantle is enough for me.

I'm open to correction but would say your bird is a female.

As to what to call them, strictly speaking I believe the correct name for the species in all its forms is White Wagtail, but in this country we call it Pied Wagtail. and it's best to follow that practice. If you talk about "White Wagtail" here, people would expect you to be talking about the continental race alba. All rather confusing!
 
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Dave, John and Sangahyando thanks for sharing some of your knowledge. I really appreciate this. All I need to do now is find a real "White Wagtail" (Motacilla alba alba)

Thanks again

Rob
 
Jonno wrote......'White Wagtail" is the continental race (Motacilla alba alba)'

Isn't this the nominate form with Pied (yarrelli) being a race of that?


Andy
 
andyadcock said:
Jonno wrote......'White Wagtail" is the continental race (Motacilla alba alba)'

Isn't this the nominate form with Pied (yarrelli) being a race of that?


Andy
Click to expand...
Motacilla alba alba is the nominate race, yes. That and yarellii are both races of what in this country - but not necessarily elsewhere - is usuallly referred to as "Pied Wagtail". The species is listed in Collins Bird Guide (2nd edition) as "Pied/White Wagtail". It then goes on to describe the races. The Handbook of Bird Identification for Europe and the Western Palearctic by Beaman and Madge lists the species as "White Wagtail". The entry in The Macmillan Field Guide to Bird Identification (Harris, Tucker and Vinicombe) is headed "Pied and White Wagtails". These are all books by well-respected people, but the terminology seems pretty fluid! For some reason I can't get into the BOU website for a definitive ruling on what they currently call it.
 
Rather than edit previous posts, I'd better try to clarify what I mean in a new post.

The generic name (indicating wagtail) is denoted by Motacilla. The species we're talking about is Motacilla alba (which different authorities may call "Pied Wagtail" or "White Wagtail"). Within that species there are various races. Motacilla alba alba is referred to as the nominate race purely because the term denoting the race happens to be the same as that denoting the species: alba. All races have the same level of taxonomic status. In this case all the races fall within the species Motacilla alba.

I'm no expert on taxonomy or nomenclature, but that's my understanding. Please forgive me if you know all this already!

Cheers

John
 
I did know that Jonno but that's fine,

IOC justs lists yarrelli under White Wag.

I doubt they'll ever split it, they've got the flavas to sort out first!!!

Andy
 
andyadcock said:
I did know that Jonno but that's fine,

IOC justs lists yarrelli under White Wag.

I doubt they'll ever split it, they've got the flavas to sort out first!!!

Andy
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Thanks Andy. Yes indeed, all this is straightforward compared with the various races of Yellow Wag. The number of head patterns shown in the books is bewildering, but they're very pretty to look at!

John
 
I remember twitching a feldegg in wales I think it was, subsequently rejected as 'impure' based on one stray, pale feather on it's head!


Andy
 
andyadcock said:
I remember twitching a feldegg in wales I think it was, subsequently rejected as 'impure' based on one stray, pale feather on it's head!


Andy
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That sounds a bit harsh Andy! Possible intergrades make an already difficult situation even trickier, but one pale feather! Always nice to have a subspecies under your belt and eventually benefiting if there's a split - a pity it didn't work out on this occasion.

Have a good weekend. (As my profile explains, I can't actually get out in the field any more |:(| but "once a birder..." and I've been pleased by the variety of birds to be seen & photographed from my windows, which have a fairly panoramic view).

I only once submitted a rarity record. Went for an Alpine Swift along with hundreds of other people, managed some flight shots and they were published in the BB monthly report. It was embarrassing personally when the final report for the year said there had been an AS reported but no one had actually sent in a formal description. I felt obliged to submit one via the recorder and got the credit when it was eventually accepted by the BBRC. I hadn't found it, but am not complaining!

Cheers

John
 
opposite for me Jonno,
I identified the WP's first Snowy Egret and got no credit even tho I was the one that circulated it to the bird lines.

Shame really, haven't spoken to a prevously very good friend since.


Andy
 
andyadcock said:
opposite for me Jonno,
I identified the WP's first Snowy Egret and got no credit even tho I was the one that circulated it to the bird lines.

Shame really, haven't spoken to a prevously very good friend since.


Andy
Click to expand...
Wow, that's an achievement which knocks my report of someone else's bird into a cocked hat. Very sharp-eyed to realise it wasn't Little Egret. What a pity you didn't get recognition for it. And to lose a friend is lousy.

I've generally found birders a decent bunch, but as we know, the competitive element gets nasty sometimes. No names, no packdrill... And there are those who are tempted by optical gear. I was at Sidlesham Ferry many years ago when an optical dealer had various bins & scopes displayed on tripods. I'd bought stuff off him before in London & asked how he was keeping. A bit fed up: he'd had the new Zeiss Dialyt 7x42s, which reviews raved about, for people to look through - at least he did until someone pinched them when he wasn't looking.

Anyway, enough depressing stuff. Good luck and good birding.

John
 
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