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Any ideas anyone? (1 Viewer)

digi-birder

digi-birder

Well-known member
Discussing holidays to the USA with our neighbour last night resulted in getting out our photo album from a previous trip, as you do! Looking through it I came across this gull taken by Keith in 35mm days (1990). I then proceeded to ID it using the Sibley Guide, failing miserably.

The month was June and the location is Sausalito, California.

I tried cropping it closer, but the quality was too poor to make the features stand out.

Hope someone can help. It's driving me mad!
 

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I'm not much of a gull person, but I would venture to add occidentalis to Steve's bold claim of Larus (Western Gull) based on the dark gray upper parts and location. Glen
 
Thanks for your input, everyone.

I know the picture is very over-exposed and not very close up, but Keith remembers that this gull had a greyish neck and a red bill, even though the photo does not show this very well.

I was looking at the dark eye and the bill does not seem heavy enough for Western Gull, according to the Sibley illustrations anyway.

Does anyone think it may be an adult breeding Heermann's Gull? That't the closest thing in the book that I can see, taking into account the lighting. The out-of-focus one on the pole in the background appears to have a grey breast and sides.
 
I can't work this bird out. It seems to have a reddish bill with a yellow tip - Heermann's has a black tip, but Western has a yellow bill!! The over exposure may account for this, as well as the grey sides looking white, so I'd have to concur with Michael that this is a Heermann's - only trouble is - I thought Heermann's were winter visitors to California?

Darrell
 
Great discussion. I'll stick with Western, Heermann's have a gray breast down to belly in adults. The back is typically dark for the southern race of Western, the northern westerns have lighter mantles. The bill is to large for Heermann's and Heermann's is truely red. I think this pinkish bill is odd though. No ad. white headed gull in USA have pink bills. So we have a great bird to chew over. I've seen both species from California north into British Columbia many times. Van
 
Gotta respectfully disagree with you guys about this being a Heermann's gull. Several reasons:

Forget color. Since the photo is overexposed, you can't rely on that for the bill color. But look at the shape of the bill. It's way too heavy to be a Heermann's, whose bill is far more tapered and less heavy than any of the black and white gulls common to California.

Also, adult Heermann's are medium gray-bodied and only white-headed, not white-chested or white-bodied. Anything younger than full adult (in breeding plumage) and the body is increasingly dark with decreasing age; and is also a medium gray all over in non-breeding plumage, never white.

Even if this photo is admittedly over-exposed, the very dark back is consistent with a southern Western gull. In southern California, the wings and mantle are dark gray to black. From about Monterey north, this same sp is lighter on the topside.

I'd say this is a southern Western gull. :)

I know I'm posting from Arizona, where I've lived for the past nearly 2 years, but before that I'd lived most of my life in southern California, where Heermann's are very common in all plumages.

I think Oldsquaw gets the prize this time! :)

Katy
 
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I think Michael and I were combining the photo with Diane's description. She said the bird had a red bill and gray sides to the neck. If this is the case it can only be Heermann's - no other gull would fit. The only other possibility is that Dianne is describing one bird, but this photo is of another.

Darrell
 
Dianne is describing one bird, but this photo is of another
Click to expand...

Great Darrell - I hadn't had that much to drink the other night. Well, I had actually, but never mind.

It was Keith that described the bird to me. I can't even remember last week, never mind seeing a bird 13 years ago and remembering its features! He distinctly remembers that it was different, which was why he took the photo. He said that if had looked similar to a Herring Gull, which the Western Gull does somewhat, he wouldn't have bothered. As we were talking about it on Sunday, before I even got the bird books out, he said, "It begins with H - Hammond's or Henman's or something like that".

It does say in both US bird books that we have, Sibley and National Geographic (which was the one we had with us on the holiday), that Heermann's is a winter species.

I know the photo is bad. I'm going to try and find the original photo envelope and see if I took any or if Keith took any more. I suspect that, as that was in the album, it was the best one.

Thanks again everyone for your input. I hope we can reach a conclusion.
 
oldsquaw said:
Great discussion. I'll stick with Western, Heermann's have a gray breast down to belly in adults. The back is typically dark for the southern race of Western, the northern westerns have lighter mantles. The bill is to large for Heermann's and Heermann's is truely red. I think this pinkish bill is odd though. No ad. white headed gull in USA have pink bills. So we have a great bird to chew over. I've seen both species from California north into British Columbia many times. Van
Click to expand...

But I can see the grey, even despite the photo being a bit over-exposed. If it wasn't over-exposed, the grey lower breast and flanks would show up even more obviously.

Over-exposure will also turn a red bill to pink.

I'm still for Heermann's.

Michael
 
I was looking at the photo only, so my comments were on the photo not a description. Also, Heermann's can be seen in California year round, especially in southern parts. A few are present in all seasons. They move north after breeding, so they begin moving north by late June in larger numbers. When I lived in Oregon, we didn't get them usually until late August. Van
 
The bird's at an awful angle and the glare is bad. I think it's a Heermann's Gull, too. I too have seen both... some years ago. I like Michael can see the grey on the side of the upper breast-- it's more than just shadow, because I can also see the broad white trailing edge on the folded secondaries. The bill looks OK for a Heermann's in terms of size (check Sibley vs. the NGS guide); the tip I agree is an enigma, but I think a minor one; its simply too bright orange for any other species. The more rounded head suggests Heermann's also.
 
Many, many thanks for all the advice about this gull.

I just couldn't get the photo any better from the scan and cropping tight made it even worse, as I said. So I agree that it is a bit difficult to see accurate colours.

I thought the bill was too fine for a Western, going by the books, and I thought that the pale grey colouring was not just shadow from the surroundings. Also, as Charles points out, the head shape is more rounded.

It's in my book as a Heermann's. If I find any more photos I'll let you know.
 
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