Red Dot Sights for Birds in Flight? (1 Viewer)

Been a bit quiet, so I thought I would post a thread on an area that has interested me for some time. Realise this is a Canon Forum but I know many of you are knowledgeable in many areas

Red dot sights (it is claimed) allow a much broader view of potential BIF targets and rapid acquisition of moving targets. They have other photographic uses but that is my main interest.

They sit on top of the camera on the flash hot shoe and have a target or reticule projected onto a semi reflective viewfinder. Looking through the red dot sight, you have a much wider angle view of potential targets and (it is claimed) you can track BIF much more easily and use the red spot target rather than the camera viewfinder. The rd spot needs and adapter to mount it on the hot shoe. They are lightweight and compact as they re used for pistols etc. They do NOT project a laser beam! The red dot is actually the projection of a red or green LED target onto a semi-reflective viewfinder and is only visible to the "shooter".

They are zeroed with adjustment screws and claim to keep zero well, although I expect they would need zeroing every time when used on a camera body.

Parallax error can be an issue, but true holographic sights which compensate for this are a LOT more expensive.

With the advent of cheap red dot sights , and limited availability of Weaver/Picanniny plate to camera hot shoe adapters. it is now possible to have a red dot sight for about £40 ($60). This seems quite cheap.

Has anyone had experience of these red dot sights and are they prepared to share their experience?

Michael.

Hi Michael

Try this http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=275743 thread, also a link to another thread in post 2

Regards

John

About 20 years ago I was into surveying stone circles, and my equipment was a Wild T2 theodolite, with a Leica Disto Basic laser distance measurer mounted on it. This blocked the normal quick sighting points, and I used a red-dot (passive type) to help point the theodolite telescope in the right direction. As mentioned, my red dot sight was totally passive, and I bought it at my local gun shop.

Thanks John. I did search the forums for "red dot" but nothing came up. Some good thinking on the threads you listed, but still not much on how well they perform in the real world. Might just have to invest and try one out.

Michael

I've used a red dot sight on a SX50. Overall they work fairly well. I've used two models, a Millett Red Dot and a Browning Reflex. Only problem is that the dot image,even at maximum brightness can be difficult to see in brightly lit situations. Parallax doesn't seem to be an issue at typical wildlife photo distances.

Mike Knott

Red dot sights

I am not yet ready for birds in flight.

But some of what I have learned already about using a
Canon SX50 with a red dot sight may be useful to some
readers of your thread.

EXPERIENCE:

I use an Electro 'Aimpoint' style sight with Red/Green
choice of dot on an Xtend-a-Sight mount fitted to a
Canon SX50.

I have fired off about 4500 window/garden/hide/wild
shots at small birds, but, as I said, no birds in flight
yet: I am still learning.

LEARNED SO FAR:

1. I instinctively prefer to mount the Aimpoint style
sight on a broad 20mm rather than narrow 10mm base.

However on the Xtend-s-Sight mount the Elevation screw
of my sight fouls the platform of the stacked 10mm base.

A friend with a precision drill mount bored out the
platform 1mm or so to let the screw sink.

If you don't have such a friend, you should consider
ordering the sight with a 10mm base.

2. Mount width terminology is confusing: 3/8" or 7/8",
10/11mm or 20/22mm.

Then some sights are described as having a Weaver claw,
others a Dovetail claw. Yet others don't specify the
type of claw.

In my limited experience so far the claw of the
sight has had enough adjustment (and the right pattern)
to mount a sight described as having a '20/22mm' base to
a mount described as having a width of 7/8".

3. I am red/green colour-blind, ie I have low
sensitivity to the difference between red and green
in certain contexts, eg viewing a microscope slide.

I find the green dot (or as I choose to use, cross) much
brighter than the red dot (or cross). This is big
advantage for me in normal or bright light.

4. The Electro sight is sold by a number of Far East
vendors. I have bought two (The first red dot only with
seven brightness settings; the second red/green dot with
five brightness settings to compare the two colours):
each is well made, and has worked perfectly.

I chose the vendor on AliExpress with the greatest
number of favourable reviews. The price was free of
postage. It worked out at just under the £15 UK customs
limit.

5. If you may conceivably ever want to fit a sight on a
Sony camera, order the necessary extra fitment at the
same time as you order your Xtend-a-Sight mount. The
fitment is cheap. It costs less than the postage will
cost you should you eventually need to buy the fitment
separately.

6. The sight in my experience so far holds its windage
adjustment when remounting.

I don't so far bother to zero the sight for elevation,
but allow for parallax 'by eye'.

I shall though zero the sight for elevation at the rough
distance I anticipate shooting when I come to shoot
birds in flight.

7. The AimPoint pattern sight is heavier and bulkier
than some of the other pattern sights on the market. It
doesn't conveniently take a protective cover.

Photos on the web, apart from photos of AimPoint pattern
sights, only rarely show the sight mounted on a camera,
so making the difference in size (and weight) between
sights apparent.

So if bulk and weight are important to you, make sure to
read the specs.

8. And of course watch for any possible mis-match
between sight and mount.

USAGE SO FAR:

6. Mostly to date I have worn 3.5 diopter
reading glasses (at £1 a pair) when using the sight.

Sometimes I brace on the strap, sometimes I don't.

To date I have used the LCD swivel monitor, as extended
out to the side, to confirm focus and frame. I look
through the sight over the top of my glasses, and at the
monitor through the glasses.

The drill is:
* Locate bird
* Put sight on it and half press shutter to get
provisional focus
* If lucky, and provisional focus is accurate, get
off first 'instant' shot
* Otherwise drop down to monitor, get focus on bird's
head, frame and shoot.

7. Is this procedure faster than using ordinary Zoom
out-Zoom in through the viewfinder (or monitor)?

I don't know.

8. Are the birds less likely to be spooked?

At window/garden range (10-20ft for small birds) I don't
think so.

9. But in favour of the sight it comes naturally to view
through the sight with both eyes open.

The view is of excellent quality.

So pick-up of the bird is fast.

And in anything longer than a quick shoot, using the
sight is much more pleasant and relaxing than using
Zoom out-Zoom in.

PLANNED USAGE:

10. First I plan to mix using the sight, and using
normal Canon SX50 Zoom Out-Zoom in technique according
to circumstances.

11. Then I plan to integrate the two techniques.

Eg it may be useful sometimes to drop off the sight onto
the monitor zoomed out, then zoom in.

It should certainly sometimes be best practice, once on
the bird in the monitor, to carry on using Zoom out-Zoom
in to track the bird, rather than revert to the sight.

12. Second I plan to fire off more shots on the sight
without dropping to the monitor.

There are three issues with the practice:
* The Canon SX50 does not find focus on small birds
easily, except in a very favourable combination of
context and background
* Small birds in addition, in order to achieve
sufficient pixels on the bird, need precise tight
framing
* Cropping in order to achieve good composition loses
pixels: But in order to achieve a well-composed photo,
one must often not just achieve good focus on the bird,
but also as a separate operation position the bird off-
centre within the frame

13. Accordingly so far my success rate--Missed focus;
chopped head or feet; bird located to left of frame
instead of to right; etc--has been low.

This has put me off. I don't get many chances of a good
shot, and I don't want to mess up what chances I get.

On the other hand, I lose many shots because I am not
quick enough from spotting the bird to pressing the
shutter.

So I must bite on the bullet, and pay the price in lost
shots to get in the necessary practice at shooting
straight off using sight alone.


BEYOND GARDEN & HIDE

14. I have just begun to take i/d shots at mid to long
distance in the field.

All I can say is that it is a new and different ball
game: You take the light, and the direction and altitude
of the sun, as you find it.

In particular, on my last outing, at one point with the
sun behind me I had to use the viewfinder: the red dot
sight was unusable.

I make no predictions how useful the red dot sight will
on more extensive experience turn out to be.

15. On the other hand the hint of my other experience is
that for birds in flight, save when tight framing is
needed, the red dot sight itself will be a success.

Any problems will rather be the usual problems of using
a bridge camera--in particular a bridge camera with the
weaknesses of a Canon SX50--for the job!


Stephen Prower

Stevenage

Wow Stephen! That's a pretty comprehensive response. Although I am looking at long telephoto lenses and not bridge cameras most of your observations ring true for both cases. I have also looked at the thread listed earlier by John Draycote(?).

I have ordered a SLR hotshoe converter to a Weaver plate (from the USA) and a red dot sight from the UK. I went for a mid range price just to minimise getting a cheap nasty version or an overpriced basic unit. I won't be able to start experimenting for a couple of weeks.

I don't expect a transformational experience, but I will be interested to see whether BIF with a red dot on a tripod gimbal mounted SLR using my 300 and 600 lenses becomes easier.

Some issues that come from your post (and others) include:

1. Weight of red dot sight
2. Stability in hotshoe and mods needed to faciltate use (if any)
3. Use in "bright" light making reticule difficult to see
4. Parallax errors if using at different focal distances.

Just need to see how it goes.......

Thanks for your comprehensive post.

Michael

Michael

Thanks for the ack!

1. I reply:

STABILITY OF MOUNT

The Xtend-a-Sight mount has been stable in the hot
shoe of my Canon SX50 without filing to fit or bodging.

I don't count this as luck. As you will see from the web
and from Phil Williams' website, the mount has had some
six years of development, and is now in its third
version. Exemplary!

In combination the Xtend-a-Sight mount and my AimPoint
style sight have to date successfully maintained windage
adjustment whether through dismounting the mount and sight
together from the hotshoe, or dismounting the sight from
the mount.

As mentioned I don't yet zero the elevation adjustment
for different target distances. I just allow for
parallax by eye.

So I don't comment upon how well my combination holds
elevation adjustment.

2. And I am reminded to add a further caution:

IMAGE STABILISATION

I am happy for the time being to exchange weight of
sight for excellent features and performance.

But weight of sight may interact with image
stabilisation.

However I have just looked at the AliExpress site, and
where sights under $40 seem--Many vendors supply
unreliable or scanty information as to specification--to
weigh little, they also seem to lack useful AimPoint
style sight features.

Some camera users may even deem the features--eg choice
of red or green dot; choice of different pattern
reticles--to be essential.


Stephen

Michael

Xtend-a-Sight: Breaking news

1. Fourteen hours ago Roxy1945 reported on DPreview that
Photosolve no longer has Xtend-a-Sights in stock.

Hatstand Emailed Phil Williams to enquire, and two hours
ago received the following reply:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3701802#forum-post-54054351

'Well, it's good to hear from you, and unfortunately I
have to report that due to economics beyond my control
(the costs of the materials was making the Xtend-a-Sight
a non-profit philanthropic adventure), I had to stop
manufacturing them. As for whether or not the situation
is temporary or permanent is still a bit up in the air.
If I can figure out a less costly approach to the
project (other than sending the manufacturing
off-shore), it is possible that I will start up that
product line again. I have a slight redesign in mind for
a new version, but no real solution to the materials and
manufacturing costs as yet.

I'm certainly glad that you are enjoying the product,
and I would advise that you guard them jealously!

Best,
Phil'.


2. Sherman_levine does though report on the thread
another possible source for a 20mm width mount (apart
from the Brando Sight/Mount package).


Stephen


P.S. I take the opportunity of this unexpected further
post to clarify that, although I describe my sight
as an 'Aimpoint' sight, I can't see on a quick search on
the the web that Aimpoint ever made them.

Indeed I can't find who at all ever originally made
them.

I therefore dip my toes again into the difficult water
of red dot sight terminology, and call the sight an
'Open' or 'Tubeless' sight with choice of (1) red/green
dot; (2) five levels of brightness for each colour; (3)
four different patterns of reticle for each colour.

For the design of sight I have to refer to the relevant
webpage:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/2013-new-style-
Red-and-Green-Dot-Reflex-Sight-peaked-head-tubeless-33mm-
Metal-Tactical-4/508644_702314237.html.

As above Top-Win does not describe the particular design
of sight as an 'Aimpoint' sight, but a number of other
Far Eastern vendors do

I bought a camera/weaver plate adapter from B&H ( link ishttp://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/877879-REG/Firefield_ff19003_Weaver_Camera_Adapter.html. Some reports said teh screw was prone to loosening, but I intend to lock it with Loctite that I use for my Arca Swiss mounts.

When I was looking at red spot sights, I erred towards "non-tube" designs with a thin framed raised glass eyepiece which I thought would allow easier BIF tracking.

As you can't test the reticule brightness before purchase I then just went for a middle of the road (UK sourced) model. The one I went for was http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171315882245&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160.

When thy both arrive I will report back on how they fit together

Michael.

Michael

The best of luck with your combination!

I look forward to reading your report.


Stephen

One thought that I had without using such a contraption: (and I do not think it was covered in the posts by Stephen): If you use the viewfinder on a camera, I would expect that the camera or your hand touching your head is part of what stabilizes the camera. In using the red-dot sight, I believe you will have to have the camera further from your eyes, and as such, I would expect that a faster shutter speed might help you with getting more keepers. (most people use pretty fast shutter speeds for BIF anyway)

On the other hand, there might be something I overlook. If you are using the camera with a tripod, then ignore my comments.

Niels

Halsa Niels!

Steadying a Canon SX50 with red dot sight at 1200mm
optical zoom


Remember I am talking of my experience learning to use a
red dot sight by photographing garden birds (plus birds
from hides and some birds in the wild)!

Birds in flight only comes next for me.

I wrote to set down some general points regarding the
usefulness of a red dot sight on a camera that shares a
long lens with the cameras that people usually use to
photograph birds in flight.

I answer you:


1. A picture speaks a thousand words!

So I have posted a photographer's 'special' of a Bluetit
that I took today in the Gallery.

The photo is low light shot from my Canon SX50 at 1200mm
(35mm eguivalent) hand held with lens wide open at f6.5,
shutter speed 1/25 second, and ISO 800.

The Bluetit was approximately 15 feet distant from me.

The photo not only came out, but came out with a
distinctive 'look' that pleased me.


2. I did not use a brace, just held my arms in tight to
my sides.

I did not fire on putting the red dot sight on the bird,
but after dropping off the sight onto the monitor to
achieve focus on the head of the bird.

Canon's Image Stabilisation did the rest.


3. However I have tried, and with my setup you can brace
the camera for shooting 'on the red dot sight' by the
back of the sight against your eye socket if you wish.


4. An advantage of using a red dot sight over using the
Frame assist - Seek button of the Canon to 'Zoom in -
Zoom out' that I have only just realised is that you can
grip the camera by the barrel of the lens with your left
hand.

You don't have to have one of the fingers or the thumb
of the left hand poised over the button on the lens
shroud.

I probably did hold the camera by the barrel in this new
way to me to further help steady it.


4. The point of wearing +3.5 diopter glasses is that I
can thereby view and 'read' the LCD monitor with the
camera held fairly close to my left eye.

This in turn enables me, as above, to get my arms in
really tight to my sides.


5. Ken Threed is the guru of Canon SX50 garden bird
photography.

He makes the point on his webpage about the
effectiveness of Image Stabilisation on the Canon SX50
that I illustrate by my own photo.

I learned the truth of his words by shooting handheld in
a shaded garden where it's sometimes a choice between
1/30 second or ISO 1600 if you wish to continue
shooting.

It's hard to believe until you experience it personally!


Stephen

mikenott said:

I have ordered a SLR hotshoe converter to a Weaver plate (from the USA) and a red dot sight from the UK. I went for a mid range price just to minimise getting a cheap nasty version or an overpriced basic unit. I won't be able to start experimenting for a couple of weeks.

Click to expand...

Possible to know from where ? On B&H shipping is around 2 times the product price, a bit much.

But would really like to try this (on a G6 with the 100 300)
And too bad the extend-a-sight has been discontinued....

Alain

I bought the Mini-in-the-Box mount:

http://www.miniinthebox.com/slr-cam...talled-quickly-find-the-subject_p1604411.html

on the following recommendation by Sherman Levine:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3704363#forum-post-54089466

The mount works fine for me as installed on a Canon SX50, and mounted with an Electro open sight that has a 20mm width base.

I was lucky: the mount fitted the hotshoe of the Canon exactly. I did not have to file or wedge it at all.

So far the sight has maintained Windage alignment on demounting and remounting. Since I use the sight mostly in the garden, I have set Elevation adjustment for roughly 10 metres, and allow for parallax 'by eye'. I therefore don't bother to recheck Elevation adjustment when remounting.

The mount comes 'Free of postage'.

Amitiés

Stephen

The Xtend-a-Sight is still marked as 'OUT OF STOCK-NO LONGER AVAILABLE':

http://www.photosolve.com/Shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=2&cat=Brackets

Thanls a lot Stephen, just ordered one (with 2 batteries to reach fee shipping )