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Looking for ID help with Muscicapas and Phylloscopus in Borneo (1 Viewer)

OK, don't take my answers as definitive, there are many better than me out there!

1st Image possible Dark-sided due the the smudged nature of the streaking.

The birds showing sharper streaking are probably Grey-streaked and the last adult types with no streaking look to be Asian Brown.

Others will certainly chip in, wait for Grahame Walbridge



Cheers, Andy
 
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J & K Eastern Crowned Warbler
L 'Arctic' Warbler sp

I will try and take a longer look at the flycatchers later but my initial impression is that they are predominantly Dark-sided, while the bottom bird from Singapore is an Asian Brown.

Grahame
 
I suspect A and B are Asian Brown - both have a broad, rather triangular bill looking from underneath, with a yellow base to the lower mandible.

Pretty sure C-E are all Dark-sided - dark-looking, tiny all-dark bill and a messy pattern of smudgy streaks on flanks and breast. Bird D shows some dark centres to the vent feathers, supposed to be a feature of Dark-sided as per Dave Bakewell. His blog is a great resource on these:

https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/tag/flycatcher/

F is hard to see but I suspect it's Asian Brown.

G looks like another Dark-sided and H Asian Brown. I've just noticed that there are two images of I - for some reason I missed the second one. Asian Brown again!

I'm not sure any of these Asian Brown types are Brown-streaked, which is supposed to have a largely yellow lower mandible.

I'm attaching a picture of a Grey-streaked which featured here recently. It has pronounced, neat, regular streaks.
 

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1. There are no Grey-streaked Flycatchers in these photos.

2. Some are clearly Asian Brown - those with little or no streaking - A, B and F, H, I.

3. The others with streaking, I'm not sure about, but Asian Brown can have light streaking. Dark-sided should have very dark streaking indeed (as in the attached photo). Several times I have thought to have Dark-sided, but BF friends have said Asian Brown. (Possibly C), D, E and G would be Dark-sided for me personally, but none of the photos here look absolutely definite Dark-sided, and I would surely ask for advice before committing.

4. The warblers all look 'Arctic' to me. In the first photo of J, you should be able to see the 'crown', but I can't. On the other hand, the very yellow bill looks Eastern Crowned - Arctic (Kamchatka and Japanese) usually has a bit of black in with the yellow where I am, but I'm not convinced the bill can't be this yellow sometimes. The vent doesn't seem very yellow, which it usually is in Eastern Crowned, and the leg pattern - dark legs with yellow feet - is fine for Arctic. On the other hand Grahame and Andy are more knowledgeable than I am.
 

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Asian id's

Scott you are an astute, first time, regional, observer. This is evident when you state is the bird I, the regular Singporean Brown Flycatcher.

You have also captured immature flycatchers and people are surprised to see these younger birds at coastal sites. Andy's advice about using the dig deep website which is detailed and regionally expansive is very good advice.

The Arctic Warbler is good record for Kalimantan. Although probably not rare here , specific and attributable records are hard to pin down in this area.
 
4. The warblers all look 'Arctic' to me. In the first photo of J, you should be able to see the 'crown', but I can't. On the other hand, the very yellow bill looks Eastern Crowned - Arctic (Kamchatka and Japanese) usually has a bit of black in with the yellow where I am, but I'm not convinced the bill can't be this yellow sometimes. The vent doesn't seem very yellow, which it usually is in Eastern Crowned, and the leg pattern - dark legs with yellow feet - is fine for Arctic. On the other hand Grahame and Andy are more knowledgeable than I am.

Birds J & H are clearly both Eastern Crowned. In the first image you would not be able to see the crown stripe from this angle as it does not normally extend to the forehead.

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=24141&Bird_ID=1802&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=

And regarding the yellow vent, it is clearly visible in the lower image, if a little burnt out. Compared to Arctic, also note different head pattern, bill structure and pattern, extent of greater covert wing bar, yellow-green fringes to remiges and cleaner underparts.

Grahame
 
I suspect A and B are Asian Brown - both have a broad, rather triangular bill looking from underneath, with a yellow base to the lower mandible.

Andy,

Brown, Dark-sided Grey-streaked all have a triangular (broad-based) bill when viewed from above/below and, they can all show pale bases. The important difference is that Dark-sided's bill is noticeably thinner and shorter when viewed from the side.

Another important difference is in the timing of post juvenile moult which is much later in Dark-sided, whereas Brown and Grey-streaked usually complete moult before migration.

Birds D,E & G are all juvenile Dark-sided's.

https://www.britishbirds.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/V103_N11_P658–671_A.pdf

Grahame
 
Andy,

Brown, Dark-sided Grey-streaked all have a triangular (broad-based) bill when viewed from above/below and, they can all show pale bases. The important difference is that Dark-sided's bill is noticeably thinner and shorter when viewed from the side.

Another important difference is in the timing of post juvenile moult which is much later in Dark-sided, whereas Brown and Grey-streaked usually complete moult before migration.

Birds D,E & G are all juvenile Dark-sided's.

https://www.britishbirds.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/V103_N11_P658–671_A.pdf

Grahame

Fair enough. What do you think about C? I still favour Dark-sided for that one. And what about A and B?

Thanks for the article - will have a look.
 
a= Asian Brown
b= Asian Brown
c= Dark-sided (but looks a bit odd)
d= Dark-sided juv
e= Dark-sided juv
f= I wonder about this being williamsoni? Have never seen one but worry that I could overlook them. There was a paper by James Eaton in a Birding Asia volume a while back that might be instructive if you can find it.
g= dark-sided juv
h=Asian Brown
i= Asian Brown
j = Eastern Crowned Warbler
k= best left unidentified
l = Arctic Warbler spp
 
f= I wonder about this being williamsoni? Have never seen one but worry that I could overlook them. There was a paper by James Eaton in a Birding Asia volume a while back that might be instructive if you can find it.

I'd say Asian Brown, Dave. We published that paper a bit prematurely really, and from what we know now, the resident Brown-streaked from Borneo - umbrosa - is actually very different from williamsoni, even structurally, and has a rather uniform dark breast. See Dave Bakewell's excellent post about them, these are about birds in Peninsular Malaysia, but are also umbrosa from what we now know - https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/2013/page/9/

James
 
C is a Dark-sided
A, B, F, H & J are all Asian Brown IMO.

Grahame

J is a warbler Grahame; I think you mean I. I agree with you on this, see my earlier post.

By the way, I'm fine with your J as Eastern Crowned, if you are sure. The bill is surely very yellow; on this detail, K should be the same. But I really would have expected the crown to be visible a little in the first of the two photos of J. But there is a hint of a yellow vent in the other photo of J.

Completely off topic, but please excuse me as I'm so happy: when I was at my local patch in the middle of Nara City this morning (circuit 3km), an Oriental Stork flew over, which suggests the breeding and re-introduction programme in northern Hyogo Prefecture, about 150km away as birds fly, is going well. We had one bird that spent a month about ten km south of here last year, but it's my first view of one in this spot. I'm now on 125 species in this patch, which is pretty impressive considering how small it is, considering that it's actually in the city, and taking into account the number of birds in Japan (about 550 species including pelagics, sub-tropical and northern locals, and accidentals/rareties).
 

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Given that the majority opinion on A and B seems to be favouring Asian Brown Flycatcher, could someone please clarify the features that they are using in ID?

My reaction to both of these birds (as well as C, which I think looks very similar) was that they were adult Dark-sided. I was basing this on:
- Relatively dark and well-defined streaks on the breast. These are stronger than I remember seeing on any Asian Brown, and I can't find pictures online of a comparable Asian Brown.
- Head pattern seems to have the 'hooded' appearance of Dark-sided. Both seem to have dark lores and submoustachial (or is that down to the light).
- Structure. Both to me seem quite round-headed and long-bodied, with long wings and short tail.
- The bill on B seems to be really small to me with quite a small pale base. I'm less sure on A from this feature, but this also looks slightly better for DsF to me.

If they are Asian Brown, are they one of the southeast Asian subspecies (I only really see the northern migratory nominate ssp).
 
Given that the majority opinion on A and B seems to be favouring Asian Brown Flycatcher, could someone please clarify the features that they are using in ID?

My reaction to both of these birds (as well as C, which I think looks very similar) was that they were adult Dark-sided. I was basing this on:
- Relatively dark and well-defined streaks on the breast. These are stronger than I remember seeing on any Asian Brown, and I can't find pictures online of a comparable Asian Brown.
- Head pattern seems to have the 'hooded' appearance of Dark-sided. Both seem to have dark lores and submoustachial (or is that down to the light).
- Structure. Both to me seem quite round-headed and long-bodied, with long wings and short tail.
- The bill on B seems to be really small to me with quite a small pale base. I'm less sure on A from this feature, but this also looks slightly better for DsF to me.

Agree
 
Given that the majority opinion on A and B seems to be favouring Asian Brown Flycatcher, could someone please clarify the features that they are using in ID?

My reaction to both of these birds (as well as C, which I think looks very similar) was that they were adult Dark-sided. I was basing this on:
- Relatively dark and well-defined streaks on the breast. These are stronger than I remember seeing on any Asian Brown, and I can't find pictures online of a comparable Asian Brown.
- Head pattern seems to have the 'hooded' appearance of Dark-sided. Both seem to have dark lores and submoustachial (or is that down to the light).
- Structure. Both to me seem quite round-headed and long-bodied, with long wings and short tail.
- The bill on B seems to be really small to me with quite a small pale base. I'm less sure on A from this feature, but this also looks slightly better for DsF to me.

If they are Asian Brown, are they one of the southeast Asian subspecies (I only really see the northern migratory nominate ssp).

Hi John, I'll give my reasoning, though as you know from previous interactions, I am not an expert.

My attempts to ID Asian Brown and Dark-sided in Japan from ten years ago or so have depended on BF friends and on Japanese birders I know. All I can say is that birds A and B were of the type I hoped were Dark-sided in my early days of birdwatching, but were discounted on BF and by Japanese friends. The reasoning is that the overall colour is not dark enough, that the streaking isn't heavy enough, and that the underbill has too much yellow. In fact, I'm almost sure that I posted images similar to A or B a few years ago hoping they were Dark-sided, and that Rockfowl (see adjacent post) or someone equally authoritative strongly said it was Asian Brown (don't search back Mark, it's not that important).

For me, some 'Asian Brown' seem to have no streaks at all, while others seem to have a lot. But the dark Dark-sided definitely look different, i.e. dark overall with heavy streaking, as with the image I posted previously. But I don't know about possible sub-species.
 
My reaction to both of these birds (as well as C, which I think looks very similar) was that they were adult Dark-sided. I was basing this on:
- Relatively dark and well-defined streaks on the breast. These are stronger than I remember seeing on any Asian Brown, and I can't find pictures online of a comparable Asian Brown.
- Head pattern seems to have the 'hooded' appearance of Dark-sided. Both seem to have dark lores and submoustachial (or is that down to the light).
- Structure. Both to me seem quite round-headed and long-bodied, with long wings and short tail.
- The bill on B seems to be really small to me with quite a small pale base. I'm less sure on A from this feature, but this also looks slightly better for DsF to me.

John,

I should have stuck with that initial reaction, that certainly B at least, was a Dark-sided. There is not much to say other than your argument is compelling and that both birds are adult Dark-sided.

Grahame
 
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