• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Common Moorhen/Gallinule (1 Viewer)

Timely, since I am heading to London in a few weeks, and I imagine this form won't be difficult to tick.

Also, should AOU accept this split, new world birders can finally get "Common Gallinule" back on official checklists.
 
Mysticete said:
Also, should AOU accept this split, new world birders can finally get "Common Gallinule" back on official checklists.
Click to expand...

Yes, & wouldn’t that be a step backwards in the eyes of the “let’s standardize English names” brigade? American Moorhen anyone? (with “Common” Moorhen, of course, becoming “European” Moorhen).
 
Last edited:
fugl said:
American Moorhen anyone? (with "Common" Moorhen, of course, becoming "European" Moorhen).
Click to expand...
I've always used 'American Moorhen' for G (c) galeata and 'Eurasian Moorhen' for G (c) chloropus, but 'Old World Moorhen' (yuk!) would actually be more accurate for the latter (its range includes Africa, as well as Europe and Asia).

It's interesting how SACC seems to be taking the lead in the Americas these days, even for common NACC species.

Richard
 
The Americas prefer Gallinule, so Laughing Gallinule is fine. The Old World prefers Moorhen, so Common Moorhen can be retained. Everybody happy!
 
Xenospiza said:
The Americas prefer Gallinule, so Laughing Gallinule is fine. The Old World prefers Moorhen, so Common Moorhen can be retained. Everybody happy!
Click to expand...
The downside is that despite chloropus and galeata being closest relatives, it suggests that within the context of the genus Gallinula, chloropus is most closely related to Old World 'moorhens' and galeata is most closely related to New World 'gallinules'.

But the same is true for Common 'Buzzard' & Red-tailed 'Hawk'...

Richard
 
The format that the SACC uses for proposals I think is probably more efficient than the one AOU uses, so it probably leads to faster voting and more changes per year than is currently possible in the AOU format.
 
Richard Klim said:
The downside is that despite chloropus and galeata being closest relatives, it suggests that within the context of the genus Gallinula, chloropus is most closely related to Old World 'moorhens' and galeata is most closely related to New World 'gallinules'.

But the same is true for Common 'Buzzard' & Red-tailed 'Hawk'...

Richard
Click to expand...
What do you mean?
 
Gentoo said:
What do you mean?
Click to expand...
I just meant that although Common Buzzard and Red-tailed Hawk have been considered to be close relatives within Buteo (in the past even suggested as conspecific), use of the European term 'Buzzard' for one, and the American term 'Hawk' for the other suggests otherwise. But actually not a good example, given that they perhaps indeed belong to Old World and New World clades respectively!

Richard
 
Richard Klim said:
I just meant that although Common Buzzard and Red-tailed Hawk have been considered to be close relatives within Buteo (in the past even suggested as conspecific), use of the European term 'Buzzard' for one, and the American term 'Hawk' for the other suggests otherwise. But actually not a good example, given that they perhaps indeed belong to Old World and New World clades respectively!

Richard
Click to expand...

I don’t want to start another “standardization of English names” war here, but do you really think that the different names for buteos on the 2 sides of the Atlantic causes confusion among birders about intra-generic relationships? Among the general public, maybe, but they’re confused about most things avian anyway.
 
fugl said:
I don’t want to start another “standardization of English names” war here, but do you really think that the different names for buteos on the 2 sides of the Atlantic causes confusion among birders about intra-generic relationships? Among the general public, maybe, but they’re confused about most things avian anyway.
Click to expand...
No, I wasn't being very serious, just idly nit-picking. I'm totally relaxed about English names in cases like this, and if Americans prefer 'hawk' to buzzard' and 'gallinule' to 'moorhen', that's fine with me - it's the scientific name that matters. Anyway, if we keep splitting every shared species, then we'll eventually have our own species on each side of the Atlantic in most cases, so everyone will be happy. ;)

Richard
 
Richard Klim said:
I just meant that although Common Buzzard and Red-tailed Hawk have been considered to be close relatives within Buteo (in the past even suggested as conspecific), use of the European term 'Buzzard' for one, and the American term 'Hawk' for the other suggests otherwise. But actually not a good example, given that they perhaps indeed belong to Old World and New World clades respectively!

Richard
Click to expand...
Ok got it now. Never knew they were ever considered conspecific. I once heard a recording of a Buzzard and it sounded remarkably similar to Red-Shouldered Hawk.

Ok back on topic. Sorry everyone.
 
Richard Klim said:
No, I wasn't being very serious, just idly nit-picking. I'm totally relaxed about English names in cases like this, and if Americans prefer 'hawk' to buzzard' and 'gallinule' to 'moorhen', that's fine with me - it's the scientific name that matters. Anyway, if we keep splitting every shared species, then we'll eventually have our own species on each side of the Atlantic in most cases, so everyone will be happy. ;)

Richard
Click to expand...

Yes, we certainly seem to be moving in that direction, don’t we! I wonder what gets split next—the Mallard or the House Sparrow? [If the latter, at least “American English Sparrow” is now off the table].

“It’s the scientific name that matters”. Well, well, I never thought I’d hear you say that . Do I detect a softening of your position on common name standardization then?
 
fugl said:
“It’s the scientific name that matters”. Well, well, I never thought I’d hear you say that. Do I detect a softening of your position on common name standardization then?
Click to expand...
I still wholeheartedly applaud IOC's project to define a set of standardised 'best compromise' international English names, to be used (at least as the first, headline name) by, eg, authors of English-language publications targeted at both the European and American markets. But I've always accepted that for the immediate future, ordinary birders (me included) will continue to use locally-traditional vernacular names in everyday use - as per my own Holarctic checklist, where I still use what I've judged to be the most popular 'English' English name and the IOC English name.

Richard
 
I have to say I've certainly come round to the IOC list - I was just worried at first that people were pushing it into common usage outside of the scientific aspect of birding. You know, into bird guides where it wasn't necessarily appropriate, but doesn't appear to be a problem. Similar sort of thing we have in chemistry - the internationally-standard name is propan-2-one, but we all still call it acetone, that sort of thing.
 
Richard Klim said:
I've always used 'American Moorhen' for G (c) galeata and 'Eurasian Moorhen' for G (c) chloropus, but 'Old World Moorhen' (yuk!) would actually be more accurate for the latter (its range includes Africa, as well as Europe and Asia).
Click to expand...

This makes the assumption that all old world moorhens are conspecific, which may not be the case. The birds on Madagascar for example are vocally distinct and to some degree morphologically distinct. There may be more to this one yet. And have you seen the diddy little Common Coots (australis) in Australia!:eek!:
 
Warning! This thread is more than 9 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

T
AOS NACC/SACC taxonomic committee governance and structures (no discussions on patronyms)
2
Replies
29
Views
3K
Mike Earp
M
J
Common Gallinule/Moorhen
Replies
6
Views
493
PYRTLE
PYRTLE
Richard Klim
Herald Petrel
Replies
10
Views
3K
Richard Klim
Richard Klim
Richard Klim
Guianan Gnatcatcher
Replies
6
Views
3K
Peter Kovalik
Peter Kovalik
Richard Klim
Bicolored Antbird
Replies
4
Views
2K
Peter Kovalik
Peter Kovalik

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top