Surf or White-Winged Scoter? (1 Viewer)

I've added another photo. There were two of them. Hope this photo clarifies the ID more. Tried to get closer, but the 6ft Alligator was hindering my efforts! Thanks to all! KAC

Need a definite ID on this bird which was found in Southeast Us this week. Could you tell me "why" you would choose "Surf" vs "White-Winged" so I know what exactly to look for in ID'ing these species in the future?

Thank you,
KAC

Surf Scoter: "megabill" not unlike that of an Eider, coming straight from the forehead is a good indication.

I'm not so sure and also a bit more detail for KAC. White winged Scoters also have very large bills. The head is also turned towards us rather than profile so it is difficult to be 100% on the Eider profile which is a good one for Surf Scoter. I'm also concerned by the small pale patch on the wings that may be white secondaries still in moult? Get the bird flapping its wings and it becomes nice and easy Also in reading some ID articles Surf can have a more defined black cap whereas White Winged is more uniform. Discounting the shadow the bird's seems to be more uniform - noticeable on the forehead. Also the white spot by the bill. Surf tend to have a spot that is taller than wide, whilst White Winged is opposite. This bird seems to fit White Winged.
There's an excellent picture from a Cape May blog... http://capemaybrit.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/november-autumns-turning-point.html (scroll down)
that has a White Winged between two Surf Scoter that shows how so very similar they are. A very tricky bird indeed and it's increased my knowledge again reading up. My gut feeling was White Winged but I could also understand clearly the Surf Scoter argument. Did it flap???

100% Surf Scoter

cheers, alan

lewis20126 said:

100% Surf Scoter

cheers, alan

Click to expand...

Yep.

Noddyball, note the darker crown that contrasts with the much paler cheeks. It gives the bird a distinctive capped appearance somewhat reminiscent off Common/Black scoter.

Tib78 - ignore all this now if you wish, see below Always worth questioning if we're not 100% even when other are.

I'm aware of that feature as I stated it in my descriptions. I cannot see this feature in the picture due to the shadow, just the white spots on the cheeks. As far as I'm concerned the forehead is concolourous with the breast which is brown. Second edit - I put the image into my photo editing software and lifted the shadows. The top of the head is still concolourous but there now does appear a slight darkening above the eye. By doing this I can now begin to see a Surf Scoter in the image.

Alan, the OP asked for reasons why it is Surf not White Winged. American White Winged Scoter tends to have a larger bill and less concave than our European Velvet Scoter - much more similar to Surf so just because it has a large bill I don't think it is a safe argument. In fact the picture I linked to shows how bills can be variable. The two Surf Scoters have very different bills. Tib78 - that picture shows the head feature on Surf's we have both described, very well. One article I found argued that often without seeing the wings the safest way of differentiation of juv/female birds was the position of the nostrils. If there is no space between the nostrils and the head feathers then it is Surf. The nostrils are not visible in the picture as far as I can tell so can't use that one. I am still a bit concerned by the patch of White where you would expect white on a White Winged Scoter, this also becomes more prominent when I lifted the shadows.

I've found it very interesting swatting up on Scoters with a long winter ahead. Time to get my coat and stare longingly off the Lancashire coast and see if that monster flock will come a little bit closer for once

Fun chatting
Ian

First Edit - just spent some more time googling images of both birds and the variability is immense. I'm sure some birds have been mis-identified. One White-Winged Scoter had no obvious white on the wing and the clear dark cap. The bill sizes vary massively. Fascinating stuff. Maybe I won't get my coat it'll just give me a headache

All that effort and thought.... Clearly now Surf Scoter. You can now clearly make out the darker cap on the head. Also you can make out on the right bird that the nape is pale also. Also there is no white at all on the body, maybe a stray leg had got into the last picture whilst it was preening and caused a reflection? I hope you are a bit clearer now on how to identify them in the future.
Cheers
Ian

nobbyball said:

All that effort and thought.... Clearly now Surf Scoter. You can now clearly make out the darker cap on the head. Also you can make out on the right bird that the nape is pale also. Also there is no white at all on the body, maybe a stray leg had got into the last picture whilst it was preening and caused a reflection? I hope you are a bit clearer now on how to identify them in the future.
Cheers
Ian

Click to expand...

Yes, I am. Thanks to all for the useful information.

KAC
Southeast US