[njlarsen]

mb1848 have already mentioned this paper http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/8/240 in a different thread, but I am not sure if it has been noticed. It is interesting because the paper concludes that the most likely origin of the Bananaquit is in the Greater Antilles (I believe the authors have included the Bahamas in that designation) and that the species have spread from there through the Lesser Antilles to South America and from there to Central America.

Niels

[Richard Klim]

IOC lists Coereba bahamensis Bahama Banaquit and C bartholemica (presumably including sspp sanctithomae, martinicana, dominicana - the latter not recognised by Zoonomen, H&M3 or Cornell/Clements) as potential splits from C flaveola, based upon that paper.

Richard

[Daniel Philippe]

Also this older paper

[ChrisPool]

What evidence splits C. bahamensis from C. bartholemica?

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by ChrisPool

What evidence splits C. bahamensis from C. bartholemica?

Well, the authors confirm the genetic distinctiveness of bahamensis compared with all other populations; but conclude that other clades are almost as divergent. [But I don't think that they actually suggest splitting.]

eg, see Fig 2, and 'Discussion: Phylogenetic support for taxonomic distinctions among subspecies'.

Richard

[njlarsen]

I agree with Richard, the authors of the recent paper did not come with any taxonomic recommendations. The way I read the paper, I think that the Bahamian and the Jamaican populations were each quite distinct, and that the rest were more similar to each other. Therefore, the way I read the paper, C. bartholemica would include the major part of the Bananaquits.

I assume that is the background for the IOC looking at these. The paper Daniel linked to differs in some details; that paper only included the mitochondria while the new one also has nuclear genes, and sample wider in the Caribbean. I am not finished thinking about the difference in results, but note that two authors are included in both studies.

Niels

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by njlarsen

Therefore, the way I read the paper, C. bartholemica would include the major part of the Bananaquits.

Yes, of course – you're right, Niels. I was earlier looking narrowly at bartholemica as the senior ssp within the Lesser Antilles clade. But bartholemica (1788) is junior only to flaveola (1758), so that C (f) bartholemica can clearly include many other sspp...

Richard

[Peter Kovalik]

Eva Bellemain, Oscar E. Gaggiotti, Anna Fahey, Eldredge Bermingham and Robert E. Ricklefs. Demographic history and genetic diversity in West Indian Coereba flaveola populations. Genetica, Online First.
Abstract

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

IOC lists Coereba bahamensis Bahama Banaquit and C bartholemica (presumably including sspp sanctithomae, martinicana, dominicana - the latter not recognised by Zoonomen, H&M3 or Cornell/Clements) as potential splits from C flaveola, based upon that paper.

C bartholemica now listed as 'Lesser Antillean Bananaquit', effectively confirming such a potential treatment (perhaps also including portoricensis?).
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates/proposed-splits

So C flaveola sensu stricto (Common Bananaquit?) would presumably then include all except Bahamas and Lesser Antilles sspp.

[MJB]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

C bartholemica now listed as 'Lesser Antillean Bananaquit', effectively confirming such a potential treatment (perhaps also including portoricensis?).
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates/proposed-splits. So C flaveola sensu stricto (Common Bananaquit?) would presumably then include all except Bahamas and Lesser Antilles sspp.

According to a number of Republican Party candidates for the Senate, amongst whom is one Todd Akin, attitudes expressed by individuals (especially atheists or 'sciency-guys' such as Bill Nye, the US science educator) can markedly affect reality, an example cited being Hurricane Isaac that delayed the start of the Republican Convention in Florida (see this mildly humorous take: http://dailycurrant.com/2012/08/29/t...nye-hurricane/. Do read down to the end and click on:
"Bill Nye Blasts Todd Akin, Challenges ‘F*****g Idiot’ to Debate".

With that principle in mind, I propose that as many as possible Bird Forumers concentrate on making the population of Bananaquit on Caye Caulker, Belize a full species Coereba cayecaulkerensis, by saying that it will happen, and by writing about it on-line as often as possible. This should satisfy scientific principles, because if we don't mention any other taxon, we have a huge control group with which we can compare results!
MJB

[Richard Klim]

Mike, can I have some of whatever it is that you're on?

[Roy'N]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

C bartholemica now listed as 'Lesser Antillean Bananaquit', effectively confirming such a potential treatment (perhaps also including portoricensis?).
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates/proposed-splits

So C flaveola sensu stricto (Common Bananaquit?) would presumably then include all except Bahamas and Lesser Antilles sspp.

I read the two articles. I don't think the article in 2012 change anything. They looked at Lesser Antilles and Puerto Rico. The only comparison outside is Bahamas and Jamaica outgroups. They don't have any mainland bananaquits. I don't understand why IOC believe mainland bananaquits are with Greater Antilles bananaquits (flaveola) instead of Lesser Antilles bananaquits (bartholemica). The article from 2008 didn't support that and the article from 2012 doesn't have mainland bananaquits.

Did IOC misunderstand something or does their 'more to come' hide an unpublished article that will revert previous results? How much attention should I pay to bananaquits in Jamaica next summer?

[njlarsen]

Originally Posted by Roy'N

I read the two articles. I don't think the article in 2012 change anything. They looked at Lesser Antilles and Puerto Rico. The only comparison outside is Bahamas and Jamaica outgroups. They don't have any mainland bananaquits. I don't understand why IOC believe mainland bananaquits are with Greater Antilles bananaquits (flaveola) instead of Lesser Antilles bananaquits (bartholemica). The article from 2008 didn't support that and the article from 2012 doesn't have mainland bananaquits.

Did IOC misunderstand something or does their 'more to come' hide an unpublished article that will revert previous results? How much attention should I pay to bananaquits in Jamaica next summer?

The good side of that is that Bananaquits in Jamaica as far as I know should be a "can't miss" species, so you should not have to go out of your way to notice them

Niels

[Richard Klim]

Hilty 2011 (HBW 16) outlines the following potential treatment (presumably based upon Bellemain et al 2008 which is listed in the bibliography), although placement of tricolor and oblita uncertain:

• flaveola clade (incl sharpei, bananivora, and presumably nectarea)
• bahamensis clade (incl caboti)
• bartholemica clade (all other sspp, contra IOC's implicit restriction to Lesser Antilles)