• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Gull ID (1 Viewer)

Gaga

Well-known member
Hi everybody,

I observed that gull this afternoon. I'm going for an adult Arctic Gull (I mean Iceland Gull), but I want your opinion on this bird. I eliminated the Herring Gull because of the all white underwings. On the other side, I've never observed an Iceland Gull with such dark primaries, and with that amount of streaking on the head...
 

Attachments

  • unknown1.jpg
    unknown1.jpg
    16.1 KB · Views: 242
  • unknown2.jpg
    unknown2.jpg
    16 KB · Views: 236
  • unknown3.jpg
    unknown3.jpg
    27.4 KB · Views: 232
  • unknown4.jpg
    unknown4.jpg
    24.3 KB · Views: 256
Last edited:
I'm not sure what you call Arctic Gull over there, Gaga. Over here the name has at times been attached to Ross's Gull, Ivory Gull and even Parasitic Jaeger!

For what it's worth it looks to me like Larus thayeri, but I'm afraid I know damn all about large gulls!

Jason
 
Sorry guys, I meant Iceland Gull (Goéland arctique in French...)! I would really love to have your opinion on that bird, if it's a Thayer's Gull, it would be the first one reported in New Brunswick!
 
Yep but usually not as dark as on this picture , hence the previous people thinking it might be Thayers .
Swift
 
Have alook at the thread "apparent Thayers Gull in Iceland " this might give you a rung up the ladder or two.
 
Greetings to a fellow Maritimer! Yor bird looks pretty good for an adult L.thayeri to me, with the right pattern of black on the primaries, the darkish gray mantle, and the head streaking. The only concern to me would be the yellow iris - however, this has been noted on some western Canadian birds.

However, you should look at a couple of other websites - there has been quite a discussion on Kumlien's vs. Thayer's on ID-Frontiers, here - http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html (look at threads 12 and 15 from this week), and you should look at the pics here - http://www.aerc.be/KumliensGull/index.htm (Kumlein's) and here - http://www.birdinfo.com/ThayersGull_image.html (Thayer's)

Good birding!
 
I never learn a lesson, I just jump right back into these discussions.

It looks like Thayer's to me, too, the mantle looks dark for even Kumlien's, and your photos show black not dark grey on primaries. The ones I've seen here have had dark irises, but Sibley says 10% have 'clear yellow iris'.
 
rb_stern said:
However, you should look at a couple of other websites - there has been quite a discussion on Kumlien's vs. Thayer's on ID-Frontiers, here - http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html (look at threads 12 and 15 from this week)
Hi RB,

Given that Kumlien's is now considered to be a natural hybrid/intergrade population between Thayer's and Iceland (McGowan & Kitchener, Brit. Birds 94: 191-194, 2001; Boertmann, Brit. Birds 94: 547-548, 2001), it is reasonable to expect that Kumlien's will show every grade of variation between almost-pure Iceland, and almost-pure Thayer's; and this does appear to be the case. Quite where one draws the boundaries of definition between the three becomes a matter of semantics; perhaps it would be safest to say Gaga's bird (given its pale iris) is a Kumlien's close to the Thayer's end of the scale of variation.

Note that the UK list authority (the BOU) treats Thayer's as just a race of Iceland, not as a separate species as the AOU does. I suspect this is a more accurate reflection of the observed level of intergradation.

Michael
 
Hi Gaga,
I think that this is a 'dark' Kumlien's:the iris is pale,the head shape isn't 'classic Thayer's',the wingtip pattern is wrong(and on the folded wing,the bases of the primaries are grey) etc.Quite close to Thayer's okay,but not the 'real deal'.
Harry H
 
Hi Michael and others,

There is a great paper , originally published in one of the Ontario naturalists' journals, by Ron Pittaway, (unfortunately not on the web) detailing the taxonomic history of "Thayer's Gull". Some of the highlights include the fact that the AOU still list Thayer's Gull as a distinct species - therefore it matters to birders who keep lists of species seen. However, there are several reviews, including one in Godfrey's Birds of Canada, and Ron Pittaway's, that suggest that this should not be the case. When first described, L. thayeri was thought to be a subspecies of Herring Gull, and that L. kumlienii was a hybrid between this and Iceland Gulls. Then some research reported in 1966 in the Canadian arctic showed that Thayer's was a separate species, and based upon that, the AOU "split" it from the others. However, this research was subsequently discredited and shown to have reached incorrect conclusions, and more accurate and modern research has shown that L. thayeri, L.glaucoides kumlienii and L. glaucoides glaucoides (the nominate form of Iceland Gull that occurs predominantly in Iceland and N.Europe are probably variations of the same species - which should all be called Iceland Gull as it was the first of the 3 to be properly described.

In another excellent review in Birder's Journal (vol. 7, no.6), Howell summarizes the dilemma for birders, in that there are no consistent differences that separate every kumlienii from every thayeri, in terms of either field observations or museum specimens, and raises some interesting circular arguments, such as "we can't learn how much they interbreed until we can distinguish them and we can't distinguish them until we learn how much they interbreed".

The main discussions now found on the web focus around whether "Iceland gull" has a continuous gradation of some features between pure Iceland at one end of the spectrum and Thayer's at the other end, analogous to, say, Rough-legged Hawks and Song Sparrows, whether they represent true color phases, analogous to "White" and "Blue" Snow Geese, separable subspecies or a combination of all of those!

Maybe there is some way in which the birds themselves can distinguish between these forms, as yet unknown to humans (e.g. has anyone looked at Thayer's and Kumlien's in U-V light?), but otherwise I feel it can only be a matter of time before the AOU "lump" Thayer's and Iceland, and then listers will unfortunately take less of an interest.

If you think this is complex, try looking at some of the literature on the taxonomy of Asiatic "Herring"-type Gulls, then Common/ Hoary/ Arctic/ Mealy Redpolls, or the 7+ possible species of Red Crossbill in N.America alone! Presumably some more definitive answers will come when researchers have enough mitochondrial DNA from recognizable forms of all these species, or whatever they are, on their breeding grounds, to analyze in a statistically meaningful way.

Cheers,
 
Warning! This thread is more than 20 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top