Origin of breeding Greylag Geese, NE Scotland (1 Viewer)

Over the last 10 years or so, greylag geese have become a regular breeding bird on Deeside in NE Scotland. This area was also, until very recently, the most important wintering area for Icelandic greylag geese in the UK.

Everything I have read about greylag geese suggests that, apart from the resident, wild, Western Isles population, the UK breeding population of greylags is of feral origin. However, there doesn't seem to be an obvious feral source for the recently established Deeside population, but there is an obvious Icelandic source.

Does anyone know if there is any evidence that wild Icelandic Greylags are a source of some of our breeding populations? I am sure I have heard that Icelandic greylags have recently started breeding in Shetland, for example.

Don't know for certain but I suspect it may be a little more complex than first appears. Seemingly wild Grey-lags are increasingly breeding in various Perthshire glens (including fairly remote sites) but so also are Canada geese.

The breeding Grey-lag population on Loch Leven has gone up & up. I suspect that many of these birds are descended from initial feral stock from further south that are 'carried' north with returning wild Icelandic Grey-lag & Pink-foot. Some possibly even pair up with juvenile true-wild stock or with gunshot 'pricked' wild birds & so the genetic provenance is likely to be mixed but the birds are now behaving in a truly wild manner.
Certainly some of the birds in the upland Perthshire lochs are difficult to approach & are occupying sites not dissimilar to some of the lochans & flows one finds on the Western Isles.

Don't know whether it's any help or what this might mean, Capercaille but just an observation. When I was on Islay last year, I found a ringed Greylag amongst the Barnacles & GWFs in a roost one evening, in the company of four other unringed Greylags. I phoned the warden at RSPB Gruinart and he told me that this was one of the migratory Icelandic Greylags which had been originally ringed in NE Scotland (can't remember where and lost my notes) a small population of which they had been monitoring for a couple of years with the migratory Barnacles and GWFs. I had brief contact with Malcolm Olgivie who seemed to know a fair bit about this, so you could try PMing/emailing him, I'm sure he won't mind, or contacting RSPB Gruinart.

It is complicated as many of the feral populations in Scotland (at least) were established from birds brought from the Western Isles (e.g SW Scotland 'feral' pop) - so although 'feral' they are decsended from native birds. Also the native population in the islands & NW Highlands has exploded over te last 10 years or so and it still expanding - where some of these birds may be moving to is not well known, and they are almost certainly mixing with 'fereal' birds in some areas on the mainland.

cheers,
Andrew

AStevenson said:

It is complicated as many of the feral populations in Scotland (at least) were established from birds brought from the Western Isles (e.g SW Scotland 'feral' pop) - so although 'feral' they are decsended from native birds. Also the native population in the islands & NW Highlands has exploded over te last 10 years or so and it still expanding - where some of these birds may be moving to is not well known, and they are almost certainly mixing with 'fereal' birds in some areas on the mainland.

cheers,
Andrew

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I agree, the term 'feral' is a misnomer when applied to the resident greylag geese found in England, and increasingly in mainland Scotland. The term reintroduced would be much more appropriate, as the original released stock was obtained from the non migratory population residing in the Western Isles and the NW mainland of Scotland. After all we do not refer to 'feral' White Tailed Sea Eagle or Capercaillie.

As for those birds in Deeside, difficult to tell. It is probable that they are resident birds from central Scotland establishing in new areas, but there is also a possibility that they could be birds from the expanding non migratory population in the north and west..

Thanks for the comments - it does seem that the different populations are all merging and are probably not so distinct as they once were.

I found a reference to the Shetland birds, in a paper by Mike Pennington, here:

http://www.the-soc.zenwebhosting.com/sb21_1-abstracts.htm

Steve G said:

Don't know for certain but I suspect it may be a little more complex than first appears. Seemingly wild Grey-lags are increasingly breeding in various Perthshire glens (including fairly remote sites) but so also are Canada geese.

The breeding Grey-lag population on Loch Leven has gone up & up. I suspect that many of these birds are descended from initial feral stock from further south that are 'carried' north with returning wild Icelandic Grey-lag & Pink-foot. Some possibly even pair up with juvenile true-wild stock or with gunshot 'pricked' wild birds & so the genetic provenance is likely to be mixed but the birds are now behaving in a truly wild manner.
Certainly some of the birds in the upland Perthshire lochs are difficult to approach & are occupying sites not dissimilar to some of the lochans & flows one finds on the Western Isles.

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Hi Steve

Our population at Loch Leven has leveled out in the past few years. The last couple of full nest surveys of Greylags on St Serfs has yeilded around 130 nests but birds have suffered from cold early spring weather and gosling predation by GBB Gulls. We did do a couple of years of nest control under licence around five years ago at the wishes of local farmers but finding greylag nests is supisingly difficult. This did'nt appear to effect the population too much. St Serfs is around 100 acres in size and does'nt really have room for any more nests. The post breeding flock have levelled off between 550 and 650 birds and while local farmers are not complaining I am more then happy to leave them. I really like Greylags for the record and as I understand they were reasonably common breeders throughout Britain but were probably persicuted to extiction many many generations ago. I am certain there is wild stock breeding out there being regarded as feral.

Jeremy

HIi Steve i am given to believe that the resident breeding population we have in Orkney is desended directly from the migratory Icelandic population. The only years i have figures for breeding pairs are 2002and 2004 and there was aprox 400 pairs in 02 and 330 pairs in 04 but thought to be substantialy more. Thay also seem to be breeding right across the isles rather than in one location.counts on the lochs produced 568 on hunland and 385 on swannay[12 07 04] and 638 on loch of tankerness 22aug and 416 at mill dam rspb shapinsay 1st sept. The Icelandic birds only start to return from mid sep. Intrestingly this is a bird that didnt feature mutch localy before 98 with regular counts of low thousands.but has expolded since.just under 10000 in98 20000in2000 to 400000plus in 2004. Certainly theres no shortage of birds over this winter. Given the presure thay are comeing under in Iceland we should be glad there are breeding populations establishing them selves away from the traditional breeding grounds

Good news from The Orkneys then. Would anybody know if there are any greylags breeding on the Shetlands? I fly in/out of Scasta a couple of times a month and there seems to be plenty of suitable lochs/lochans.

Oops, sorry i did not read the link re. shetland until after i posted.