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Ooops! Here's the other one! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joan & Matt
- Start date
Rob Smallwood
Well-known member
Possibly immature male Lesser Goldfinch?
Michael Frankis
conehead
American Goldfinch, male, still only partially into summer plumage.
Michael
Michael
Joan & Matt
Well-known member
We do have dozens of American Goldfinches here year-round, and one thing we are certain of is that this is not a goldfinch, although I am wondering, hybrid, perhaps? It is very shy, so it is hard to get a good picture, but the tail lacks the white center stripe, the coloration is completely different from any of our goldfinches at any stage of coloration, it is way too chubby, and it ignores the sunchips and eats the insects! I'm stumped! Ready to toss in the towel and say hybrid! Will keep trying for a better photo!
Thank you! Joan
Thank you! Joan
Charles Harper
Régisseur
I don't think it's an American Goldfinch, I think it's a Lesser: all yellow under and the dark bill. Get a shot of its undertail, eh?
Good birding,
Good birding,
Joan & Matt
Well-known member
OK, after getting up at dawn, skipping work, and spending 5 hours with the camera, I have about 12 totally out-of-focus tail shots. This is one nervous little bird! I can tell you this, I see almost NO white in the tail on either side, it is mostly yellow with some black. I DO think you're right about it being a lesser goldfinch though. I didn't realize lessers could be so vibrant, this is a very strong yellow, much darker and more vibrant than the American goldfinches; but after viewing pictures on the web, it appears they certainly can be! Also, difference between breeding and non-breeding male should be taken into account, I think? We simply do not have lesser goldfinches around here (Michigan, USA)! In fact, I haven't even found any listings of transient sightings in our state, but we have gotten some way out-of-range birds the past few years! Thank you, I am going with lesser goldfinch. I will keep trying for better pictures, wish it would settle down a little!
Michael Frankis
conehead
Lesser Goldfinch doesn't have that prominent white median covert bar; American Goldfinch does. Dark bill is also OK for American, when it isn't yet into full summer plumage. Absence of white in the tail also rules out male Lesser (and this bird obviously isn't a female!!)
The only other possibility is some sort of escape from captivity or a hybrid - American Goldfinch x Pine Siskin might be worth investigating, the latter could account for the yellow in the tail (which none of the US goldfinches have!). Anyone know if this hybrid has been documented?
Michael
The only other possibility is some sort of escape from captivity or a hybrid - American Goldfinch x Pine Siskin might be worth investigating, the latter could account for the yellow in the tail (which none of the US goldfinches have!). Anyone know if this hybrid has been documented?
Michael
Darrell Clegg
Well-known member
Michael, You're right about Goldfinch's having white on the undertail, but American Goldfinch is not that dark about the head.
I've never heard of hybrid Pine Siskin x American Goldfinch, but I suppose it's possible, however I don't think it's a finch at all - that bill looks a bit long
What's wrong with female Baltimore Oriole - that would explain the yellow and black on the tail, the dark head, the bill shape, the yellow breast and the median covert bar.
Joan and Matt - is there any more white in the wing or is the bar we can see all there is?
Darrell
I've never heard of hybrid Pine Siskin x American Goldfinch, but I suppose it's possible, however I don't think it's a finch at all - that bill looks a bit long
What's wrong with female Baltimore Oriole - that would explain the yellow and black on the tail, the dark head, the bill shape, the yellow breast and the median covert bar.
Joan and Matt - is there any more white in the wing or is the bar we can see all there is?
Darrell
Hi Darrell et al,
I may not have much experience of American passerines,but I DO know Baltimore Oriole!;-)(well,I have seen ONE!)
This could certainly be one(or some other oriole),the bill/head shape/colouration seems right,but I'd have to ask one vital question first:what size was it?As far as I remember,Baltimore O is around the same size as a Starling,if differently proportioned,and should be noticably larger than American Goldfinch(unless,of course,the latter is considerably larger than Eurasian Goldfinch?).
Harry
I may not have much experience of American passerines,but I DO know Baltimore Oriole!;-)(well,I have seen ONE!)
This could certainly be one(or some other oriole),the bill/head shape/colouration seems right,but I'd have to ask one vital question first:what size was it?As far as I remember,Baltimore O is around the same size as a Starling,if differently proportioned,and should be noticably larger than American Goldfinch(unless,of course,the latter is considerably larger than Eurasian Goldfinch?).
Harry
Darrell Clegg
Well-known member
Harry,
I'm judging the size by the gate its sat on. That scroll - (if British gates are anything to go by) would be between 3 and 4 inches high. The bird looks bigger than that so would be about right for Oriole
Darrell
I'm judging the size by the gate its sat on. That scroll - (if British gates are anything to go by) would be between 3 and 4 inches high. The bird looks bigger than that so would be about right for Oriole
Darrell
Michael Frankis
conehead
Good thinking Darrell - I was thrown by the lack of useful items to judge size by, and that there was nothing to say it was twice the size of a Goldfinch!
Hi Harry,
American Goldfinch is about the same size as ours.
Was your Baltimore Oriole the one that turned up in Baltimore?
Michael
Hi Harry,
American Goldfinch is about the same size as ours.
Was your Baltimore Oriole the one that turned up in Baltimore?
Michael
Hi Michael,
Yes,I saw the Baltimore Oriole in Baltimore!To date,this is still the only Irish record.
Partly guessed that the American Goldfinch would be similar in size to ours,and this bird is clearly larger.I don't know enough about the other North American orioles,but it looks like Baltimore to me.
Harry
Yes,I saw the Baltimore Oriole in Baltimore!To date,this is still the only Irish record.
Partly guessed that the American Goldfinch would be similar in size to ours,and this bird is clearly larger.I don't know enough about the other North American orioles,but it looks like Baltimore to me.
Harry
Joan & Matt
Well-known member
First of all, thank you all for your help. After carefully crafting a reply, I went out to measure the gate scroll and lost the reply when my daughter took over the computer, so if you get both replies somehow, apologies! Let me try again. First, the scroll is 2-1/2 inches high, the little knob next to it is two inches high. This is a very plump bird, but I am sure it is no more than 6 inches long. I have in my notes that it has one more white wing bar running parallel to and below the one showing here, but otherwise no pronounced white in the wing. Also, has white eye rings that don't show well here. It flies in a downward swooping manner, and seems clumsy when not moving in big swoops. Haven't heard a sound from it! Also, you are right, the beak is too long for a finch. Matt will home soon, he usually has better luck with the camera than I do (er, perhaps it's a matter of skill?)!
Charles Harper
Régisseur
I don't have such trouble with real birds. Now I went back and looked at your first bird ('Help with I.D.?') and they're looking like they belong together. Yes, size now rules out a little goldfinch, and never go for birds that are a state record unless you are compelled to. Oriole, and orangish, so Baltimore (I know I said Orchard before, but I have a weak character). Keep at it, folks.
Joan & Matt
Well-known member
OK, the male Baltimores around here are so orange they knock your socks off! And the male orchards are darker orange than the Baltimores! How about female orchard and female Baltimore? I'd buy that.... looks more like an immature male Baltimore, but shouldn't all the males be mature around here this time of year? OK, so it's got some developmental problems, don't we all, LOL! Must rid myself of Oooops obsession....
Joan
Joan
Rob Smallwood
Well-known member
I'm sorry but I'm not convinced by the "Oriole" concensus. I've never seen one but surely any plumage of Baltimore should be more orangey, not yellow?
The bright adult female Lesser Goldfinch illustration in "Sibley" matches all the plumage features of this bird - and I'm not sure why it can't be a female unless I'm missing something obvious.
Against "Lesser" is the bill which looks a bit long for a "stout-billed" finch and allowing for the fore-shortening effect of the photo might suggest an Oriole rather than finch.
The size suggests it is too small for any Oriole - J & M are suggesting less than 6 inches - Orioles are nearer 9?
I'm not pushing Lesser Goldfinch because I think that the observers would know a "tiny" finch from an Oriole, but I would warn against making definite conclusions from photographic evidence where colour, shade, size and structure can all be distorted.
Enjoying the debate though!
The bright adult female Lesser Goldfinch illustration in "Sibley" matches all the plumage features of this bird - and I'm not sure why it can't be a female unless I'm missing something obvious.
Against "Lesser" is the bill which looks a bit long for a "stout-billed" finch and allowing for the fore-shortening effect of the photo might suggest an Oriole rather than finch.
The size suggests it is too small for any Oriole - J & M are suggesting less than 6 inches - Orioles are nearer 9?
I'm not pushing Lesser Goldfinch because I think that the observers would know a "tiny" finch from an Oriole, but I would warn against making definite conclusions from photographic evidence where colour, shade, size and structure can all be distorted.
Enjoying the debate though!
Joan & Matt
Well-known member
Sigh, can't let it go yet....I swear, it is far too plump for a goldfinch, far too short and plump for an oriole, but unless someone can enlighten me, I'm going with female Baltimore oriole. It's been a weird and exciting sping, we live on the exact edge of a large state conserved forest and wildlife preserve, and we are surrounded by forest. We've had a cold spring, things are slow to green, and this seems to have changed the bird patterns a bit. The birds that normally pass thru on their way north are staying longer (loads of indigo buntings, what a delight!), and things are coming in from the forest that we usually don't see without looking for. I usually don't see orioles except in flashes until after they've fledged their young, perhaps that is why these two birds (Orchard and Ooops)don't look right to me. After they've fledged thier young, they like to bring the little ones around to our yard and feeders, but not before. Well, it's 7:51 pm in Michigan, time for a beer: to your health and happiness! Again, thanks, it's been fun!
Joan
Joan
Joan and Matt--
My husband and I thought we were seeing things when we viewed the picture of your mystery bird!! We live in Ithaca, MI, about 40 miles North of Lansing, and we saw your bird, or its twin, in our yard, on May 9, 2003 --made a note of 'mystery bird'--in my nature journal. We did not come to any onclusion on ID, however, I will say, I don't think it was any of the Goldfinches, unless it was on steroids!!
My husband and I thought we were seeing things when we viewed the picture of your mystery bird!! We live in Ithaca, MI, about 40 miles North of Lansing, and we saw your bird, or its twin, in our yard, on May 9, 2003 --made a note of 'mystery bird'--in my nature journal. We did not come to any onclusion on ID, however, I will say, I don't think it was any of the Goldfinches, unless it was on steroids!!
