Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (3 Viewers)

timeshadowed · Jul 14, 2006

Post #5389

Tim Allwood said:
am i missing something?
whatever the flap rate is (impossible for me to ascertain) it's a PIWO
Tim

Post #5390

Bonsaibirder said:
Point is Tim that Goatnose thought he had found a video of a Pileated flapping at a rate previously thought to be diagnostic for IBWO.

(Edited to add that this is to clarify what Goatnose was trying to say. Originally I misunderstood Bonsaibirder's above post.)

He states very plainly that it is a video of a 'juvenile Pileated' not an IBWO. It is the FAST flap rate that he is concerned about because he has just captured on film a 'fact' that will disprove the validity of the use of flap rates as a diagnostic tool to distinguish an IBWO from a PIWO.

Needless to say, in his post, he is bemoaning the loss of this 'diagnostic tool'. Goatnose is not trying to say he has captured an IBWO on video.
TimeShadowed

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Post #5387

Goatnose said:
Flap Rate
I am discouraged in presenting this video or someone prove me wrong. Is not this flap rate of a juvenile Pileated at a rate that is way too fast to be a Pileated? Please prove me wrong.
http://www.tyler.rrtstudios.com/Photos/Juvy_0003.wmv
thanks for your comments

Post #5388

fangsheath said:
I'm afraid I am not able to get a wingbeat rate from your video. There is just too much intervening vegetation to chart wing positions, and the flight portion of the video is very brief. From Dave Nolin's videos I get pileated wingbeat rates as high as 9.0 Hz for the first 0.3 sec after launch.

choupique1 · Jul 15, 2006

cinclodes said:
I have noticed an unusual comment in the reply to Jackson's commentary in The Auk. Cornell claims that the ivorybill is the most endangered bird in the world. I'm not sure of the current status of the rarest species, but I believe this would have to mean there are only a few remaining individuals. How could the species have survived for so many decades if this were true? The most reasonable hypothesis is that there exist small populations scattered throughout the range. In fact, this hypothesis is consistent with all the reports over the years. Based on the fact that the species has survived (as I have directly observed), the incredible wariness of the species (as I have directly observed), and the pattern of reports, I would estimate that there are on the order of a hundred ivorybills. By studying topo maps of the southeastern states, I came up with this estimate before my first sighting, but now I'm very confident in it.

there are 8 scattered populations

timeshadowed · Jul 15, 2006

choupique1 said:
there are 8 scattered populations

So what is your estimate of the total bird count in all of the combined locations?

What is your estimate of the total breeding pair count in all of the combined locations?

Piltdownwoman · Jul 15, 2006

Bonsaibirder said:
Point is Tim that Goatnose thought he had found a video of a Pileated flapping at a rate previously thought to be diagnostic for IBWO.

Keep those videos commin! I 'm sure the cutting room floor at CLO is filled with flap rates of PIWO just like these.

It is important to note that there is no diagnostic flap rate for an IBWO. CLO wants you to believe that with a single (N=1) audio recording only, with no narration of what the bird was doing, that they can say that the flap rate of an IBWo is faster than PIWO - and they use published PIWO flaps of birds in level flight.

This is a bright shiney object to chase, blessed by CLO and somehow in the lexicon now, rich with spurrious correlations - flap rate will never identify this bird, and if it comes to that you really ought to worry.

The "science" that took y'all down the flap rate path is awful. Sample size of 1, no narration, but passed off as the real "A-ha!" moment. And do I even need to mention the folly of identifying a bird based on one field mark! If we can do that, then By Jimminy, the bird in this video is an IBWO too.

They're everywhere!

fishcrow · Jul 15, 2006

choupique1 said:
there are 8 scattered populations

I think there are more than eight, but it depends on your definition of where one population ends and another begins. For example, I know there are ivorybills in the Pearl and there have been intriguing reports from just to the east in the DeSoto N.F. and a little further to the east in the Pascagoula. I would regard these as separate populations, even though they're close enough for gene flow. So just to clarify, I don't mean isolated when I use the word scattered. Indeed, that would have meant doom for the species decades ago. My guess is that there are more than twenty scattered populations, like a string of pearls across Louisiana, up the Mississippi Valley, and east all the way to Florida and the Carolinas. Some of them may consist of one or two birds, but the Atchafalaya and a few other areas may have several pairs.

timeshadowed · Jul 15, 2006

choupique1 said:
there are 8 scattered populations

The very fact that these populations are 'scattered' is both a blessing and a curse.

It is a blessing because if disease - westnile - or something else invaded one population the other 7 may escape the same fate.

However, it is also a curse because that means that in-breeding is also a factor in the long-term survival of the bird.

timeshadowed · Jul 15, 2006

That makes me even more encouraged!

Now, if only someone could produce that ONE-Picture-Perfect-Photo!

cinclodes said:
I think there are more than eight, but it depends on your definition of where one population ends and another begins. For example, I know there are ivorybills in the Pearl and there have been intriguing reports from just to the east in the DeSoto N.F. and a little further to the east in the Pascagoula. I would regard these as separate populations, even though they're close enough for gene flow. So just to clarify, I don't mean isolated when I use the word scattered. Indeed, that would have meant doom for the species decades ago. My guess is that there are more than twenty scattered populations, like a string of pearls across Louisiana, up the Mississippi Valley, and east all the way to Florida and the Carolinas. Some of them may consist of one or two birds, but the Atchafalaya and a few other areas may have several pairs.

fishcrow · Jul 15, 2006

timeshadowed said:
The very fact that these populations are 'scattered' is both a blessing and a curse.

It is a blessing because if disease - westnile - or something else invaded one population the other 7 may escape the same fate.

However, it is also a curse because that means that in-breeding is also a factor in the long-term survival of the bird.

That makes me even more encouraged!

Now, if only someone could produce that ONE-Picture-Perfect-Photo!

As mentioned above, I believe the populations are scattered but not isolated. Indeed, isolated populations would have spelled doom for the species long ago.

As far as pictures go, I'm starting to lean toward hoping that nobody gets one anytime soon. Let the skeptics remain in the dark like the members of the Flat Earth Society.

kyanite · Jul 15, 2006

timeshadowed said:
The very fact that these populations are 'scattered' is both a blessing and a curse.

It is a blessing because if disease - westnile - or something else invaded one population the other 7 may escape the same fate.

However, it is also a curse because that means that in-breeding is also a factor in the long-term survival of the bird.

The key question for genetic diversity is, are these populations all descended from Singer Tract refugees or did multiple populations survive through the 1940's?

timeshadowed · Jul 15, 2006

cinclodes said:
Let the skeptics remain in the dark like the members of the Flat Earth Society.

Now, that put a smile on face! Thanks, I needed the laugh tonight.

TimeShadowed

bernerjc · Jul 15, 2006

Bravo-that's hilarious

colonelboris said:
I've got some footage...

http://www.tonykeenebirds.co.uk/random/pic01934.asf (2.8 mb)

however, that ceramic conical chimney protusion in the background of your video could never be found in the USA.

And the IBWP seemed very stiff and a bit smaller than I was expecting

bernerjc · Jul 15, 2006

London Birder said:
tomatoe?

did someone phone Dan Quail?

Ah, the irony. London Birder in a post picking on Dan Quayle, misspelled Dan's surname.

Those who live in glass houses....

curunir · Jul 15, 2006

Piltdownwoman said:
Keep those videos commin! I 'm sure the cutting room floor at CLO is filled with flap rates of PIWO just like these.

It is important to note that there is no diagnostic flap rate for an IBWO. CLO wants you to believe that with a single (N=1) audio recording only, with no narration of what the bird was doing, that they can say that the flap rate of an IBWo is faster than PIWO - and they use published PIWO flaps of birds in level flight.

This is a bright shiney object to chase, blessed by CLO and somehow in the lexicon now, rich with spurrious correlations - flap rate will never identify this bird, and if it comes to that you really ought to worry.

The "science" that took y'all down the flap rate path is awful. Sample size of 1, no narration, but passed off as the real "A-ha!" moment. And do I even need to mention the folly of identifying a bird based on one field mark! If we can do that, then By Jimminy, the bird in this video is an IBWO too.

They're everywhere!

Give the guys a break. They're coming up with the video evidence that PIWO can flap like a son of a bitch thus discounting a quantitative diagnostic. (About the only thing you could measure by the way.) Isn't that what science is about, killing your own theories?

Docmartin · Jul 15, 2006

Bonsaibirder said:
Hi Doc,

Nice sketch - where was it - Aberdeen?

Bonsai

Newtonhill actually - the birding's got better since you left. I have audio evidence too. :t:

Goatnose · Jul 15, 2006

Flap Rate and more

timeshadowed said:
Post #5389

Post #5390

Thanks TimeShadowed for getting my back. I can assume that it is my southern accent that is hard to understand. But there is more to this video of a large woodpecker from WRNWR. Immediately one should recognize that the bird is agitated, behaving in an unusual manner almost challenging. This bird came to me either to challenge me or just out of curiosity. Guys, please watch the video again and notice the quick movements of this bird, how the bird looks at me(the camera) and moves his head in and out to focus on detailing the top predator that has invaded his world, probably(very probably) the first top food chain predator that this bird has come in contact. There were three other large woodpeckers foraging with this bird that never came with in distance to be identified as to species (however their calls were PIWO). This bird was identified as a juve by its size, its size proportion to the length of his tail and by his call. Note, this bird would never have been captured on film without the bird being bold enough to come into view on his on account. Thus the flap ratio therefore is just that, the ratio of a very agitated juve PIWO. Thanks to fangsheath for taking a look. Note also, that this juve's call(not captured) was noticeable different than the other PIWO's and speculate from there that a juve IBWO would sound different than what we have heard on the Cornell site. Important, can I rule out that flap ratio is not diagnostic of an IBWO, nope. All that I can rule out is that the flap rate of a very agitated juve PIWO appears quicken.
For entertainment I have posted a Video of another PIWO on my web site that is captured at the entrance of (his or her) cavity. Will the PIWO enter the hole as I observe? Watch and see. Entertainment only but notice how cautious and wary this bird is again. If the IBWO is even more cautious than the PIWO(all agree they are) then good luck to the searchers.

SueO · Jul 15, 2006

Goatnose,
If you do your epicurean float this weekend, I hope you'll write to us about it.

Jesse Gilsdorf · Jul 15, 2006

Goat:

Thanks for the post. I am glad to see that there is such a variation of pileateds in their wary nature. I have had some basically not care that I was present, allowed me to photograph, and I was slowing walking and alternating standing still, in the open, no camo.

Others appear very wary. Red heads I have seen range from downright skittish to "I couldn't care less" in their approaches. Usually this seems to relate to the probably amount of human contact with the species.

Jesse

Btw: Goatnose? I hope that isn't a personal hygiene comment of some kind.

Goatnose · Jul 16, 2006

down wind

Jesse Gilsdorf said:
Goat:

Thanks for the post. I am glad to see that there is such a variation of pileateds in their wary nature. I have had some basically not care that I was present, allowed me to photograph, and I was slowing walking and alternating standing still, in the open, no camo.

Others appear very wary. Red heads I have seen range from downright skittish to "I couldn't care less" in their approaches. Usually this seems to relate to the probably amount of human contact with the species.

Jesse

Btw: Goatnose? I hope that isn't a personal hygiene comment of some kind.

Perhaps that is why several months back Choupique1 advise that searchers should search into the wind.? :'D
Looking forward to tomorrow, new area for myself and to answer Peregrinator's question

jbissell · Jul 16, 2006

choupique1 said:
hmm I wonder how many "birders" purchase duck stamps.......

I am a birder who buys duck stamps, and I have never shot a gun at anything except clay pigeons. I couldnt hit the broad side of a barn. :'D

It should be a birder's duty to buy 1 (or several) duck stamps each year.

jbissell · Jul 16, 2006

Photographic evidence

Jos Stratford said:
Unfortunately, like it or not, confirmation of the existance of this bird is going to require more than a series of single observer records, no matter how well they feel they have documented it.

Sorry, Im still catching up on the posts after a weeks vacation.

Iowa's records committee is starting to get pretty strict about 1st state records needing photographic proof. Its not always that way, but most of the time.

If 1st state records are starting to need photos, then Ivory-billed Woodpecker evidence will need at least photos!

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