We are overun with two notable introductions which have a considerable effect on our environment, namely Canada Geese and Grey Squirrels yet nobody is declaring war on them.Why?
We are overun with two notable introductions which have a considerable effect on our environment, namely Canada Geese and Grey Squirrels yet nobody is declaring war on them.Why?
Brenty said:Instead we seem to want to take the "intelectual " arguement about introductions. Lets come up with some extreme highly unlikely pseudo scientific scenarios to show how clever we are.
Are you honestly suggesting that the current population of Eagle Owls is having the same detrimental effect on the environment as the current populations of grey squirrels and canada geese?
What I am suggesting is that we focus on those species doing the most damge not on those doing the least.
We have a deliberately/accidentally introduced top predator which has no place in our ecosystem.......It's not a clever argument. It's common sense that requires little more than a basic grasp of ecology to understand.
Are you honestly suggesting that the current population of Eagle Owls is having the same detrimental effect on the environment as the current populations of grey squirrels and canada geese?
But once again you are treating them as if they are from another continent, or even from the far side of our continent! They live naturally in all countries around us! They may have been resident here in the past, they may occasionally turn up as vagrants, and they may colonise naturally in the future! Surely this makes them an entirely different kettle of fish to canada geese and grey squirrels in terms of their potential threat to our wildlife.
But once again you are treating them as if they are from another continent, or even from the far side of our continent! They live naturally in all countries around us! They may have been resident here in the past, they may occasionally turn up as vagrants, and they may colonise naturally in the future! Surely this makes them an entirely different kettle of fish to canada geese and grey squirrels in terms of their potential threat to our wildlife.
But once again you are treating them as if they are from another continent, or even from the far side of our continent! They live naturally in all countries around us! They may have been resident here in the past, they may occasionally turn up as vagrants, and they may colonise naturally in the future! Surely this makes them an entirely different kettle of fish to canada geese and grey squirrels in terms of their potential threat to our wildlife.
In that case, I'll pay your ferry fare if you wish to take a sack load of woodpeckers, tawny owls, marsh tits, nuthatches etc etc etc to Ireland. Or maybe come back into Dover with a sack of Black Woodpeckers, Crested Larks and icterine Warblers?
But that would be irrational, wouldn't it? It would be interfering, it may upset the balance of the ecosystem in Ireland or Britian, it would be plain wrong to do it. But they exist in counties all around Ireland/Britian, so why not?!
Eagle owls have never been here. they are only here now becuase idiots have relased them, just like the idiots who released hedgehogs on Uist (they exist in counties all around it!). Ouur ecosystem has never had them, so it has therefore developed differently (yes, even after all the modification, it is STILL different from Holland, Norway, Germany). EO only exist in Holland because of quarrying and introductions - hardly 'natural'.
No-one is talking about doing it deliberately. It has happened accidentally..
All those other species you mention may well colonise Britain/Ireland at some point, and as with the EO's I doubt they would upset the balance if they got established, by accidental or natural means.
I accept that there is a small risk that eagle owls will upset the balance here, so why don't you accept that you don't know for sure that "eagle owls have never been here" Unless both sides admit that there is a grey area, the debate will keep going round in circles.
I accept that there is a small risk that eagle owls will upset the balance here, so why don't you accept that you don't know for sure that "eagle owls have never been here" Unless both sides admit that there is a grey area, the debate will keep going round in circles.
You sure? i think deliberate releases are strong suspected.
Because I am 100% confident that they have not been here in a natural state, other than possibly as an extremely rare vagrant akin to Scops Owl or Hawk Owl. They have never bred here naturally, they have never colonised, they have never had a population. Just because one bird may have been sat on a Suffolk dune for a few hours one misty October morning in 18-whatever, it doesn't make it native!
It's not a grey area at all - there is zilch evidence for it! Ask the BOU!
Anyone who says things shouldn't be monitored is nuts.
Anyone who says action shouldn't be taken if there are adverse consequences is nuts
Tim
well theres probably a bit of both, but they weren't deliberately introduced by people who want them in the wild. They were most likely released by people who could no longer be bothered to look after them properly.
No evidence doesn't mean it hasn't happened I'm afraid! No-one can say for 100% sure that one of these Lancs birds isn't a natural colonist. You can be 99.999% sure, but not 100%.
I'd go further. I think that any nests found should be pricked, or young removed, and adults caught if possible. I think monitoring alone will be little better than watching the horse as it actually bolts the stable, rather than running for the door.
Amarillo, your 0.001% probability would not be accepted by any scientific body, any court of law, any man in the street or any chimp that can count. There's probably the same possibility that the Loch Ness Monster is real and that crop circles are not made by drunk men with ropes. You can never prove a negative, only assess the probability. In this case, it's safe to say that it's small enough to set aside. That's the BOU panel's opinion, and they've reviewed all the evidence. It's also my opinion. You're entitled to yours, but please don't ever get yourself in charge of conservation policy!