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Black Vulture? Near Madrid (1 Viewer)

Keebs

If I fire off enough shots, maybe just one of 'em
About 4 or 5 of them came circling in low over a petrol station.
 

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This is the cinereous vulture (Aegypius monachus), also known as the black vulture and not the Coragyps atratus which shares the same common name, right?

Based on location alone, I understand the first option to be the correct one.
 
The pics show Eurasian Black Vulture Aegypius monachus. They are black, not cinereous (ash-coloured, = pale whitish grey), so can't properly be called "cinereous vulture" :t:
 
Unfortunately so, yes. The result of a combination of intolerable arrogance and unbelievable incompetence on the part of Sibley & Monroe in 1990 (or possibly earlier) in compiling a world bird list. They took the attitude that since there was a bird called Black Vulture in Europe/Asia, and a bird called Black Vulture in the Americas, one would have to be changed to avoid confusion. For them, the Americas are superior over Europe/Asia, so therefore, the American bird could keep its name, and the Europeans and Asians must be ordered to change theirs, since they are inferior beings. So they issued a dictat that henceforth, the European and Asian bird had to be called "cinereous vulture". This is where their incompetence comes in, as they failed to realise that 'cinereous' means pale grey, not black: they probably got mixed up with fuliginosus (soot-coloured), but of course ash and soot are not the same.
 
Thanks, Nutcracker, but I'm a little confused now, since Wikipedia refers to Aegypius monachus as Cinereous vulture.
Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinereous_vulture
Yeah, they're following a checklist set up by some American (IIRC) authors who unilaterally decided to re-name the species. As I understand it, the original English name of the species is Black Vulture.
As useful as Wikipedia is as a source of general information, it has a wonky approach to bird taxonomy and nomenclature IMO, and it's not authoritative anyway.

edit: oops, I got ninja'd...


edit2: actually, Nutcracker, isn't it theoretically possible to submit a motion to the IOC or other national and international committees to make them revert to the old name of the species?
 
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The pics show Eurasian Black Vulture Aegypius monachus. They are black, not cinereous (ash-coloured, = pale whitish grey), so can't properly be called "cinereous vulture" :t:

Of course, they are not black either; as the photo clearly shows, they are dark brown.

Thanks, Nutcracker, but I'm a little confused now, since Wikipedia refers to Aegypius monachus as Cinereous vulture.
Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinereous_vulture

Your initial post is correct. Nutcracker is simply quibbling with the naming authorities because he prefers the older name "Black Vulture," which is better applied to the truly black new world vulture.
 
Of course, they are not black either; as the photo clearly shows, they are dark brown.
Well, if you want to go all technical, the principle of seniority still applies. Which of the two species was called "black vulture" first? I haven't found out yet, but I suspect it's Aegypius monachus.


Your initial post is correct. Nutcracker is simply quibbling with the naming authorities because he prefers the older name "Black Vulture," which is better applied to the truly black new world vulture.
And I prefer the American name "zopilote" for the new world species.
Also, official bird names aren't set in stone. They can and do change if inaccurate.
 
Well, if you want to go all technical, the principle of seniority still applies. Which of the two species was called "black vulture" first? I haven't found out yet, but I suspect it's Aegypius monachus.


And I prefer the American name "zopilote" for the new world species.
Also, official bird names aren't set in stone. They can and do change if inaccurate.

Principle of seniority applies to scientific names, not common names. Agree with your last comment--official bird names such as "black vulture" for the eurasian bird is inaccurate, and was due for a change.;)
 
Of course, they are not black either; as the photo clearly shows, they are dark brown.


Your initial post is correct. Nutcracker is simply quibbling with the naming authorities because he prefers the older name "Black Vulture," which is better applied to the truly black new world vulture.

My problem with the name Black Vulture being used for the American bird is that it's that it's not a vulture. As a member of a new world taxon with some visual similarities with true vultures, it would be better renamed Black Condor for consistency with other members of that group.
 
Interesting discussion and info! Thank you.

It seems that the Cinereous epithet has caught on locally here in Israel, at least partially. The Black vulture one is also in use, so it certainly is confusing.

BTW - I only raised the topic because the (American) Black vulture was recently featured on Wikipedia's front page. It was then that I noticed this vulture to look nothing like the species I'm familiar with.
 

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Principle of seniority applies to scientific names, not common names.
Can you not see the absurdity of the situation? It's like renaming Panthera leo to something like "fallow tiger" (or magenta tiger, in keeping with the colour confusion theme) because of the hypothetical danger of confusing it with the Mountain Lion or the Marsupial Lion otherwise. The large vultures of Eurasia were the original template for the concept (and term) of "vulture", since before the English language was even a thing.


Agree with your last comment--official bird names such as "black vulture" for the eurasian bird is inaccurate, and was due for a change.;)
I thought you might say something like that. It's missing the point, though. You can't "fix" inaccuracy with an even bigger inaccuracy.
Also, I'm sure that there are plenty of species that are called "black", but are actually dark brown or grey. It's not really a mistake worth correcting.
 
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Of course, they are not black either; as the photo clearly shows, they are dark brown.



Your initial post is correct. Nutcracker is simply quibbling with the naming authorities because he prefers the older name "Black Vulture," which is better applied to the truly black new world vulture.

The New World bird isn't black either, it's dark grey, with cinereous underside to the primary feathers ;)

But it's the means of renaming that is really offensive: no consultation of local authorities, just imposition from outside. How would you feel if for example a European group had unilaterally issued a renaming of Coragyps as 'Yellow-bellied Vulture' with no right of response allowed?

As it happens, a European suggestion of Monk Vulture (from Danish Munkegrib, German Mönchsgeier, etc.) has been made for Aegypius, but has not been permitted by the Americans who are dictating bird names at us.
 
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