Micro Four-Thirds (6 Viewers)

If you import from US to Sweden you will be charged tax and duties amounting to 31%.

Have you seen this thread in DPR ?
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3919642

Besides the clash of egos and the extremely technical arguments and formulas (way over my head o) I learned a lot about TCs and optics in general.

In the first post, the author refers to this article:
http://www.slrgear.com/articles/canon_tc/canon_tc.htm

It is a very down to earth article comparing Extenders II and II, both 1.4X and 2X. Unfortunately, the lens is the Canon 200mm ƒ/2.8L, not the 400mm f/5.6L. Have a close look at the photo samples at the end of the article.

Regarding autofocus, this statement is important: "Canon suggests that AF drive speed is reduced by 50% when using the 1.4x Extender, and speed is reduced by 75% when using the 2x Extender" I see this as an indication that the 2X TC would probably not allow autofocus on the 400mm, with the pins hack. But even then, a 1600mm manual lens weighting about 1500g. is still quite interesting. A friend as a V. I 2X TC: I will test and report in a week or two.

I have purchased the lens and will order the adapter later today. I still don't know what I will do with the TCs.

One thought I had about the 2x TC is whether the IBIS would handle it. I feel that at 600(560)mm is is close to the edge. Even a 1.4x is noticeably harder to hand hold than 400, and the IBIS can only move the sensor so far before it has to "reset". So with 2x, some kind of support would really be a necessity. Also keep in mind that with 2x we would have 800/f11! and that means HIGH ISO in order to get the shutter speeds up, and none of the 4/3 cameras are really high ISO cameras.
From what I have observed, I would not say that AF is 50% slower with the TC on. May be so with a Canon that is faster to begin with. I haven't thought about it enough to try and test it systematically but it doesn't seem like a big difference.
In good light the AF is really quite quick, with and without the TC , and let's face it, long lenses are good light lenses anyway. The fact that it has worked so well so far in BAD light is encouraging.
As I said, I would love to give a 2x a try, but at around €320-340 used here.... don't think so unless I can borrow one. There are a number of 2xs for sale now, and not a single 1.4x, either II or III. That leads me to believe that the people who have tried the 2x have found it counterproductive. That is certainly what I felt about the EC-20 and sold it while it was still worth something.

As for the discussion on dpreview.... typical. Starts off interesting and ends up a sand box fight between juveniles with too much time on their hands.

DanC.Licks said:

One thought I had about the 2x TC is whether the IBIS would handle it. I feel that at 600(560)mm is is close to the edge. Even a 1.4x is noticeably harder to hand hold than 400, and the IBIS can only move the sensor so far before it has to "reset". So with 2x, some kind of support would really be a necessity. Also keep in mind that with 2x we would have 800/f11! and that means HIGH ISO in order to get the shutter speeds up, and none of the 4/3 cameras are really high ISO cameras.
From what I have observed, I would not say that AF is 50% slower with the TC on. May be so with a Canon that is faster to begin with. I haven't thought about it enough to try and test it systematically but it doesn't seem like a big difference.
In good light the AF is really quite quick, with and without the TC , and let's face it, long lenses are good light lenses anyway. The fact that it has worked so well so far in BAD light is encouraging.
As I said, I would love to give a 2x a try, but at around €320-340 used here.... don't think so unless I can borrow one. There are a number of 2xs for sale now, and not a single 1.4x, either II or III. That leads me to believe that the people who have tried the 2x have found it counterproductive. That is certainly what I felt about the EC-20 and sold it while it was still worth something.

As for the discussion on dpreview.... typical. Starts off interesting and ends up a sand box fight between juveniles with too much time on their hands.

Click to expand...

Hi Dan,

You are right about IBIS. I have used my SW80ED a lot in the 900mm range with TNs and a Barlow and I have had good results under good light. I don't use IBIS anymore because I feel it works too hard and I am afraid to damage it. I have a sturdy tripod with a gimbal and it it is quite stable anyway. See the attached example taken last August with a TN at about 75m.

My plan is to use the 400mm and 2X TC in manual mode with the tripod, to replace the scope. It would make it a much lighter setup to carry. I'll try it with a borrowed TC, we'll see...

The 2X TCs don't work in autofocus mode with most lenses and this is why there are so many on the used market. Even when hacked to make them work, autofocus is very slow and works only under very good light with good contrast. I have tried one on my Canon 300mm and 100-400mm lenses. It was a disaster on the zoom lens...3

Hi

I personally think that 2X TC are meant to be used with fast optics. I know others have demonstrated good results can be achieved (Paul for instance) but I usually fail in getting good results when using with my scopes.

Then are the OMD IBIS issues at long FL, heavy vibrations followed by IBIS eventually giving up. I found out the upper limit for reliable operation is 600mm, 800mm works sometimes but it depends on the weight. For instance my TS102 714mm scope requires IBIS to be set at 600, 800 would be a closer fit but then I get the vibrations. The SW80 + EC14, a much lighter setup, can be used with IBIS at 800 usually without vibrations.

If I were to get a 400mm F/5.6 lens (I am tempted) it would not be as a replacement of the scope. It would be as a lightweight, hand held, carry around setup that bridges the gap between the 50-200 and the scope.

That is the way I see it too.
OK, we know there are focus issues with Canon cameras unless the 2x is stuck on a White Monster. But.... maybe that won't affect us if the first three pins are taped. After all, I can use all 37 focusing points with the 1.4x, and Canon would only give me one, so who knows, maybe it would work. It would never match the optical quality of your TS 102, but under real world circumstances, it might do well enough. I will see if I can find one for sale here in Vienna and try it out. Pretty busy until the end on the month, but then I will have plenty of time.

Like I wrote, I don't think autofocus will be a viable option with a 2X TC. Of course I'll try it but...

With the SW80ED, I was setting IBIS at 600 and I was getting vibrations, even without a TN or Barlow.

I love water birds and photographying them is an important part of my hobby. Unfortunately, they are often quite far. I hate carrying the big scope (and 5-600mm lenses are just as big) but I need it when birds are too far for the 100-300mm. The 400mm and 2X TC would give me 800mm, which is enough reach for my needs and manual focus, no IBIS wouldn't be worse than the SW80ED.

The opposite is true for birds that are close by. Using the Canon 100-400mm, 95% of my bird photos were taken at 400mm. The same is true with the 100-300mm. For birds at closer distances, reliable autofocus and IBIS are mandatory. If I find that the added weight from the 100-300mm to the 400mm is not too bad (750g), I could very well end up just carrying the 400mm. I would then probably sell the 100-300mm.

Thanks for your replies!

I checked the site and compared EF 400 5.6 USM with and without extender 1.4 and 2.0 and the test image was a little softer with the extenders than for the EF 400 5.6 USM alone.

Anders

Dan,

Have you checked out this film : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTPM5U6fBDM

I wonder if your Metabones adapter behaves the same way on your E-M1 when changing apertur while looking at the live view screen ?

Anders

Hi Anders,
You watch too much television.
1. Commlite has NO AF. Only aperture control.
2. There is no flashing in live view, not even in M mode. Behaves absolutely normally.
3. There is minimal flashing going both ways in movie mode, nothing like what he is showing and less than with the mFT 75-300 attached.
4. There is NO delay when changing the battery.
5. The video is out dated and for me, irrelevant. Different camera and different adapter. Done before firmware v1.8. What it was like before I do not know as I didn't even try it out with v1.7.

Cheers
B

Hello Dan,

That is good to know, thanks.

Did you check up on the kippon version 2 also?

Anders

I think the Metabones is the only one that allows AF..... so far... no doubt the others will catch up and sell basically the same thing for half the price. But I didn't feel like holding my breath that long.
And who knows, by then there might be improvements in the Metabones firmware...


By the way, just as an aside, the thread on POTN regarding AF issues with the 7DII is now 250 pages and 3,745 posts long, with the biggest complaint being AF accuracy and consistency. Even one guy who was a staunch 7DII defender from the beginning is sending his in for the third time. We might not have the fastest AF with this setup, but it is ACCURATE!

Dan,

What settings do you use on the EM-1 with the 400/Metabones ?

A mode, with three different Mysets (hate that word....my pictures, my music, my desktop, ...my ass!).
Home AF is single point, large. Only shoot raw with WB set to sunny. Never touch it. Still, I have the ISO and WB assigned to the lever, down for ISO. I also have Fn2 set for focus peaking and the movie button set for 2x magnification, should I need them for MF.
1. Normal static subjects. 9 point AF, ISO 400, IS1 on, single shot with AntiShock=0. Assigned to the AEL/AFL button.
2. Slower moving subjects. 37 point AF, ISO 400, IS1 on, 7 FPS. Assigned to One Touch WB button.
3 BiF. 37 points, ISO 800, IS off, 7FPS. Assigned to preview button.
Once in a set, I can toggle easily between the home AF and the set AF using the Fn1 button. Having the sets assigned to the buttons allows me to go from one to another very quickly. And I can do it all with one hand. Well thought out it is, the E-M1.

It took me a while to get the camera to save the settings in the Mysets. Two things I had to watch out for, neither of which is mentioned anywhere. 1. To up-date a set, erase the saved settings first and then save the new settings. It wouldn't save the new settings otherwise. 2. Make sure the AF is set to the desired array (9 point or 37 point) before saving. If it is not, it will save the home AF point twice. It is a bit buggy and a number of times it would not save the settings. Sort of off and on. Finally got it though and it works well enough.
Once in a set you can change things like the ISO or exposure compensation as needed. But once you go to another set and come back, it naturally reverts to the original settings in the Myset.

DanC.Licks said:

A mode, with three different Mysets (hate that word....my pictures, my music, my desktop, ...my ass!).
Home AF is single point, large. Only shoot raw with WB set to sunny. Never touch it. Still, I have the ISO and WB assigned to the lever, down for ISO. I also have Fn2 set for focus peaking and the movie button set for 2x magnification, should I need them for MF.
1. Normal static subjects. 9 point AF, ISO 400, IS1 on, single shot with AntiShock=0. Assigned to the AEL/AFL button.
2. Slower moving subjects. 37 point AF, ISO 400, IS1 on, 7 FPS. Assigned to One Touch WB button.
3 BiF. 37 points, ISO 800, IS off, 7FPS. Assigned to preview button.
Once in a set, I can toggle easily between the home AF and the set AF using the Fn1 button. Having the sets assigned to the buttons allows me to go from one to another very quickly. And I can do it all with one hand. Well thought out it is, the E-M1.

It took me a while to get the camera to save the settings in the Mysets. Two things I had to watch out for, neither of which is mentioned anywhere. 1. To up-date a set, erase the saved settings first and then save the new settings. It wouldn't save the new settings otherwise. 2. Make sure the AF is set to the desired array (9 point or 37 point) before saving. If it is not, it will save the home AF point twice. It is a bit buggy and a number of times it would not save the settings. Sort of off and on. Finally got it though and it works well enough.
Once in a set you can change things like the ISO or exposure compensation as needed. But once you go to another set and come back, it naturally reverts to the original settings in the Myset.

Click to expand...

Thanks Dan. It is roughly similar to my actual settings. You forgot to mention the setting I was mostly looking for... C-AF or S-AF ? For Static ? For BIF ? Also, how do you set metering for Static and BIF.

With the 100-300mm, my settings for those are:
Static: S-AF - Spot - 1 small point
BIF: C-AF - Center weighted - 9 points

The 400mm being designed for PDAF, I suspect different settings may be needed.

Sorry, I thought it was clear that C-AF is not yet a viable option with the Metabones adapter. I have written them to see what the chances are of that improving, but I have yet to get, and probably won't get an answer.
C-AF sort of works OK in good light, but it is not really reliable enough.... yet.
I haven't thought much about the metering and setting it differently for the different sets. I always just use center weighted. Have to experiment a bit with that...

Up to this point I have been using the following settings for the EM1

MySet1: for static objects
MySet2: for BIF
MySet3: for use with scope, rarely used though since I prefer the EM5 for use with the scope, so not further discussed here

MySet 1:
Single AF point
IS on
F/2.8 (meaning open aperture and let the optics actually used determine the max aperture)
ISO 400 (as starting point, adjust depending on light conditions/subject)
Low FPS (5 or something like that)

MySet 2:
All 37 AF points
IS off
Auto ISO
F/4.5-5.6 as starting point, stop down to increase DOF as much as possible while preserving short shutter speed (1/1000 or shorter).
High FPS (9). In reality you will get less due to iris.
+1 EV

F2 button: Magnify
F1 button: Focus peaking

Lever: Set to toggle between SAF and CAF

AF home position: central 9 AF points

On the front of camera body:
One touch WB: Assigned to use MySet1
DOF preview: Assigned to use MySet 2
(I found that after a while the camera will revert to the settings used prior engaging one touch WB/DOF preview)

The basic idea is to be able to quickly respond to changes with a minimum of button activations.
Switch between static subjects and BIF with the front buttons
Toggle between 37 and 9 AF points when in CAF mode/BIF
Toggle between single AF point and 9 AF points when in SAF mode. Bird takes off and you increase chance of getting more frames with correct focus.

Like Dan wrote, I have a feeling that storing and recalling settings is a bit buggy, sometimes you don't get what you expect.

First photos with the 400mm/Metabones

Nice and sunny - perfect for testing the new lens yesterday morning. Tested handheld without TC - only lens and adapter.

Autofocus

Compared to the Oly 100-300mm, I would say it is about as fast 75% if the time, it hunts a little 20% of the time and doesn't focus at all 5% of the time. When it can't focus, releasing the shutter and trying again usually does it very quickly. To allow you to compare, I consider that the focusing speed of the 100-300mm is medium speed compared to all the M43 lenses I have tried; the 100-300mm hunts a lot for focus, maybe 20-30% of the time but it always acquires focus, even if it takes more time. No clear winner here but it is frustrating when it can't focus.

Accuracy, sharpness and CA

Accuracy of focus at long distance targets is very good, much better than the 100-300. See the attached samples, the first 4 were taken between about 30m. and 60m., which I consider beyond the limits of the 100-300mm. IMHO, it shows that focusing accuracy is very good and that the lens is very sharp. The attached images clearly show substantial cropping but I wanted to demonstrate how much detail is left considering the distance.

Contrast and highlights are quite a bit higher than the 100-300mm but there is more CA. It can be removed quite easily in LR just by clicking on "Remove Chromatic Aberration" but it was more problematic on a couple photos where serious work in PhotoShop was needed.

I tried a few shots at birds that were very close and was not satisfied with the results. Focus was not accurate. See the last photo. I can do better with the 100-300mm. God knows why ? It could be me...

BIF

I tried C-AF and it definitely doesn't work. It seems ok on static objects but can't find the flying birds at all.

S-AF is surprisingly good, probably better than S-AF with the 100-300mm. The focus is usually accurate when it finds the bird. I will have to get used to finding the birds with the additional 100mm and the added weight - I found it difficult, even on the slow flying Gulls. The Red Dot Sight could very well get a second life...

Weight and size

EM-1, 400mm with hood (permanent), without tripod collar, Metabones Adapter, battery: 1925g. - 39cm long with hood fully extended.

EM-1, 100-300mm with hood, battery: 1125g. - 26 cm long fully extended with hood.

The 400/Metabones + camera is 71% heavier and 50% longer. I found it easy to carry on a light shoulder harness (binocular style) but will have to get used to the added length. I walked about 1.5km on easy terrain and the weight didn't bother me at all.

So far so good ! This first encounter with the lens and adapter is quite positive.

All photos are substantial crops except the last one which is not cropped at all.

Photo #1: 1/600 - f/5.6 - ISO 400 - 40-50m.
Photo #2: 1/800 - f/5.6 - ISO 200 - 50-60m.
Photo #3: 1/800 - f/5.6 - ISO 200 - 20-30m.
Photo #4: 1/2500 - f/8 - ISO 800 - about 30m.
Photo #5: 1/800 - f/5.6 - ISO 800 - 5-7m. lacks details !

Jules,

What firmware version do you have in the adapter ?

What setting on the lens did you use, 3.5 or 8.5 m to infinity ?

Anders

Binoseeker said:

Jules,

What firmware version do you have in the adapter ?

What setting on the lens did you use, 3.5 or 8.5 m to infinity ?

Anders

Click to expand...

Firmware: V. 1.81.
Lens setting: I'm not absolutely sure, but I think it was 8.5m. for the first 4 and 3.5 for the last one.

I also tried a TN between the camera and the adapter. It focuses (manually of course) on very close objects only. If fact, the adapter acts as a macro extension tube.