grey squirrels menacing garden birds (1 Viewer)

scuba0095 · May 21, 2006

Hello

have you guys seen this?? How are birds able to nest when squirrrels are constantly menacing around ready to take eggs rob nests?

ARe any garden birds able to actually keep squirrels at bay? The only thing I have seen squirrels run from are cats or dogs but with so many out there I wonder how on eary these birds thrive!@ :-C

TwoClubs · May 22, 2006

scuba0095 said:
Hello

have you guys seen this?? How are birds able to nest when squirrrels are constantly menacing around ready to take eggs rob nests?

ARe any garden birds able to actually keep squirrels at bay? The only thing I have seen squirrels run from are cats or dogs but with so many out there I wonder how on eary these birds thrive!@ :-C

As a matter of fact, just today I very thoroughly enjoyed myself watching a bunch of nesting grackles terrorize a squirrel in my yard. Migrating grackles are an annual terror in my neighborhood in Minneapolis, squawking constantly until their first brood flies and they move north, usually around the end of June or so. They even threaten me when I get close to their young, but it's fun to watch them chase squirrels.

squirrelman · May 22, 2006

It is true that Gray Squirrels do raid little song bird nests and eat the eggs. They will also partially eat the baby chicks if they feel like having some meat. I have seen crows chase the squirrels around while they are on the ground. I don't know if they are trying to catch them or just play with them in their own way. If you want to protect the nesting birds, I guess the only thing you can do is eliminate the squirrels from the area.

Macswede · May 29, 2006

We only have Red Squirrels here and many of the larger birds give them a hard time - from the birds point of view I suppose perfectly justified.

I once saw 2 Fieldfares chase a squirrel into the communal concrete grill outside the building. Fortuately it wasn't in use at the time!

Graham

squirrelman said:
It is true that Gray Squirrels do raid little song bird nests and eat the eggs. They will also partially eat the baby chicks if they feel like having some meat. I have seen crows chase the squirrels around while they are on the ground. I don't know if they are trying to catch them or just play with them in their own way. If you want to protect the nesting birds, I guess the only thing you can do is eliminate the squirrels from the area.

devon.birder · May 29, 2006

This was published in todays Daily Telegraph:

Voracious grey squirrel 'is greatest threat to songbirds'
By Charles Clover, Environment Editor
(Filed: 29/05/2006)

The grey squirrel and the domestic cat are preventing the recovery of Britain's songbirds, which were devastated by intensive farming and the removal of hedges in the post-war years, says a new report.

The report says that in areas of high grey squirrel density, 93 per cent of small bird nests are raided

Of the two introduced predators, the grey squirrel kills more young songbirds than the cat.

The findings of the report, commissioned by the charity, SongBird Survival, are likely to challenge the received wisdom about the decline in songbird populations since the 1950s and what has prevented many from recovering over the past 15 years when farmers have been using fewer chemicals and participating in green farming schemes.

The author of the report, Prof Roy Brown, of Birkbeck, University of London, estimates that overall some 180 million adult songbirds, or their eggs and young are killed by mammals every year - chiefly squirrels, cats and rats.

That is out of an estimated natural population of 260 million of the main 15 songbird species - blackbird, song thrush, blue tit, great tit, robin, skylark, meadow pipit, wren, dunnock, whitethroat, greenfinch, chaffinch, yellowhammer, reed bunting and corn bunting.

The report says that in areas of high grey squirrel density, 93 per cent of small bird nests are raided. Where this is combined with sparrow hawk activity, it can result in 100 per cent breeding failure and a loss of 85 per cent of adult songbirds.

Prof Brown, who reviewed a wealth of information on the causes of songbird deaths said yesterday: "It looks as if 60 per cent of all breeding activity is being knocked out by predation.

Perhaps now something will be done in the UK about this imported menace. Roger

scampo · May 29, 2006

scuba0095 said:
Hello

have you guys seen this?? How are birds able to nest when squirrrels are constantly menacing around ready to take eggs rob nests?

Are any garden birds able to actually keep squirrels at bay? The only thing I have seen squirrels run from are cats or dogs but with so many out there I wonder how on eary these birds thrive!@ :-C

Fascinating to read. But in the UK, unless there has been a recent change, our leading bird charity, the RSPB, is unconvinced that predation by grey squirrels has any negative effect on bird numbers.

Goes against common sense, to me. A friend takes the matter in hand and shoots them as, in the UK, they are officially vermin. Being territorial, however, as soon as one pair is despached another pair turns up.

ermine · May 29, 2006

scampo said:
Goes against common sense, to me.

The relationship between predator and prey does go against common sense, which would indicate that the predator controls the situation.

It seems to be the numbers of prey that controls the number of predators. Hence in the UK the number of stoats is controlled by the number of rabbits, not vice versa.

This failure of 'common sense' has lead to numerous examples of the introduction of predators in an attempt to control prey. It works at first, but as the predators wipe out a lot of the prey, the numbers of predators crashes, and the prey swell their ranks again. So you get a cyclical variation of both, with the peak in predators lagging the prey. which isn't usually the desired effect.

Songbird Survival is everything that conservation shouldn't be about. Emotive hate campaigns are backed up with anecdote but no science.

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/tech1.html?link=predators

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/magpies.html?link=predators

with interesting background on

http://www.againstcorvidtraps.co.uk/songbird_survival.html

Anecdote is fine to establish that something may be worth investigation, but no substitute for analysis.

scuba0095 · May 29, 2006

Question

The domestic cat which is a heavy bird predator also kills squirrels and will kill a whole nest of them if it gets a hold of the babyies. I have personally seen my cat shoot up a tree and just miss the squirrel by a few inches.

I wonder if domestic cats predation on squirrels helps?

jurek · May 29, 2006

ermine said:
The relationship between predator and prey does go against common sense, which would indicate that the predator controls the situation.

It seems to be the numbers of prey that controls the number of predators. Hence in the UK the number of stoats is controlled by the number of rabbits, not vice versa.

This reasoning does not apply to Grey Squirrell, because it is omnivore. It will not starve no matter how many nests are destroyed, but will switch to nuts and seeds.

Feral cats are also outside this equilibrium, because they feed on rubbish and are fed my people.

devon.birder · May 29, 2006

ermine said:
The relationship between predator and prey does go against common sense, which would indicate that the predator controls the situation.

It seems to be the numbers of prey that controls the number of predators. Hence in the UK the number of stoats is controlled by the number of rabbits, not vice versa.

This failure of 'common sense' has lead to numerous examples of the introduction of predators in an attempt to control prey. It works at first, but as the predators wipe out a lot of the prey, the numbers of predators crashes, and the prey swell their ranks again. So you get a cyclical variation of both, with the peak in predators lagging the prey. which isn't usually the desired effect.

Songbird Survival is everything that conservation shouldn't be about. Emotive hate campaigns are backed up with anecdote but no science.

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/tech1.html?link=predators

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/magpies.html?link=predators

with interesting background on

http://www.againstcorvidtraps.co.uk/songbird_survival.html

Anecdote is fine to establish that something may be worth investigation, but no substitute for analysis.

Why don't you write to Professor Roy Brown of Birbeck, University of London and tell him that his report is an emotive hate campaign?. You could then post his reply for us to read. Roger

scampo · May 29, 2006

ermine said:
The relationship between predator and prey does go against common sense, which would indicate that the predator controls the situation.

It seems to be the numbers of prey that controls the number of predators. Hence in the UK the number of stoats is controlled by the number of rabbits, not vice versa.

This failure of 'common sense' has lead to numerous examples of the introduction of predators in an attempt to control prey. It works at first, but as the predators wipe out a lot of the prey, the numbers of predators crashes, and the prey swell their ranks again. So you get a cyclical variation of both, with the peak in predators lagging the prey. which isn't usually the desired effect.

Songbird Survival is everything that conservation shouldn't be about. Emotive hate campaigns are backed up with anecdote but no science.

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/tech1.html?link=predators

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/magpies.html?link=predators

with interesting background on

http://www.againstcorvidtraps.co.uk/songbird_survival.html

Anecdote is fine to establish that something may be worth investigation, but no substitute for analysis.

Good points if rather cuttingly presented.

During my life I have been told that the grey squirrel posed no threat to the red; and, of course, I learned from those that know such things that the grey squirrel is neither a threat to songbirds. Common sense told me otherwise, but I went along with what those who knew better told me.

Odd then that now, when the red squirrel is near to extinction, I learn that - after all - the grey squirrel is unquestionably a threat to the red.

I have also read that a Norfolk farmer, having rid his land of grey squirrels, found songbird numbers multiply in number (Guardian article).

Makes common sense seem worthwhile, maybe?

ALAN DICKINSON · May 29, 2006

Grey squirrels are not exactly predators they will eat anything ,so when songbird nuimbers fall it is very unlikely to affect these little pests i saw one rip apart a long tailed tit nest there was no food shortage its mates were all over the nuts that had been put out for the local tits they dont belong over here , and if they all upped sticks and went back across the pond I would be delighted .Alot of younger people seem to have no idea whats been lost because they have got used to things as they are.

scampo · May 29, 2006

ALAN DICKINSON said:
Grey squirrels are not exactly predators they will eat anything ,so when songbird nuimbers fall it is very unlikely to affect these little pests i saw one rip apart a long tailed tit nest there was no food shortage its mates were all over the nuts that had been put out for the local tits they dont belong over here , and if they all upped sticks and went back across the pond I would be delighted .Alot of younger people seem to have no idea whats been lost because they have got used to things as they are.

One thing is certain - where their numbers are not controlled they proliferate out of hand. I went to Alvaston Castle a while back to look for a firecrest (not far from you) and the grey squirrels were almost scarily common - several dozens in quite a small woodland.

It's clear, from that experience, that they are generally well controlled, presumably by the local council and forestry concerns. I'm glad that's the case - if we had that many rats we'd be up in arms, and they are no more than a type of rat, I believe.

ALAN DICKINSON · May 29, 2006

Hi Steve I am glad someone agrees at least in part alot of people round here call them tree-rats and shoot them on sight I know of one guy who got a gun just for this. I live close to: the castle: but wonder what its fate will be when it is sold, the trouble with these little sods is the fact that they look cute and bring out CBS in so many people

ermine · May 30, 2006

devon.birder said:
Why don't you write to Professor Roy Brown of Birbeck, University of London and tell him that his report is an emotive hate campaign?. You could then post his reply for us to read. Roger

Since you're clearly more familiar with the intimate details of Songbird Survival's 'research' perhaps you could point me to where on their website they have hidden the published report? Their press release describes their version of the conclusions but I was unable to locate the sound science upon which they based their emotive hate campaign.

I'm perfectly prepared to accept the eradication of grey squirrels may be a good idea, provided this is a conclusion based on analysis of the effect on native species rather than opinion. I draw the line at their approach to sprawks and other raptors. This is the old huntin'/shootin' lobby dressing up in new clothes. If our landed gentry want to fill up the countryside with prey species so they can charge people for shooting at them that's fair enough I suppose, but whingeing when natural predators of their prey turn up for the party too is going too far.

scampo · May 30, 2006

ALAN DICKINSON said:
Hi Steve I am glad someone agrees at least in part alot of people round here call them tree-rats and shoot them on sight I know of one guy who got a gun just for this. I live close to: the castle: but wonder what its fate will be when it is sold, the trouble with these little sods is the fact that they look cute and bring out CBS in so many people

They even affect me - I couldn't shoot one! But the numbers at Alvaston would make anyone see what would happen if they were given free reign.

I think it's a shame Derbyshire CC have given up on that fine park. I suppose because they have the Peak NP they can't afford such places as Alvaston. It's a shame - it's a fine place and is worth preserving.

devon.birder · May 30, 2006

ermine said:
Since you're clearly more familiar with the intimate details of Songbird Survival's 'research' perhaps you could point me to where on their website they have hidden the published report? Their press release describes their version of the conclusions but I was unable to locate the sound science upon which they based their emotive hate campaign.

I'm perfectly prepared to accept the eradication of grey squirrels may be a good idea, provided this is a conclusion based on analysis of the effect on native species rather than opinion. I draw the line at their approach to sprawks and other raptors. This is the old huntin'/shootin' lobby dressing up in new clothes. If our landed gentry want to fill up the countryside with prey species so they can charge people for shooting at them that's fair enough I suppose, but whingeing when natural predators of their prey turn up for the party too is going too far.

I have no love either for Songbird Survival whose main aim is the cull of certain birds of prey and I have written to my local paper in the past to protest at the publication of their propaganda. However I am not aware that the grey squirrel preys on RPs and the Professor's findings were publicised on both BBC and ITV.
If you do not wish to write to the Professor no doubt his report will be more widely available in due course. Bird lovers like myself who actually go birdwatching can see the problem that the out of control grey squirrels are causing in our woodland and I am minded of the saying "there's none so blind as those that will not see". When I see squirrels running up and down trees I don't think they are doing it for exercise, in my opinion you either love birds and want them to survive or you prefer squirrels, you can't have both. Roger

Touty · May 30, 2006

scampo said:
Fascinating to read. But in the UK, unless there has been a recent change, our leading bird charity, the RSPB, is unconvinced that predation by grey squirrels has any negative effect on bird numbers.

Goes against common sense, to me. A friend takes the matter in hand and shoots them as, in the UK, they are officially vermin. Being territorial, however, as soon as one pair is despached another pair turns up.

the article continues:

"Grahame Madge, of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, said: "Grey squirrel predation is something we at the RSPB - and the British Trust for Ornithology, English Nature and the Forestry Commission - are beginning to think is a problem.

<snip>

''But for hawfinch and a number of other species, the grey squirrel is one factor that has been identified as part of the problem.''

Touty · May 30, 2006

ermine said:
The relationship between predator and prey does go against common sense, which would indicate that the predator controls the situation.

It seems to be the numbers of prey that controls the number of predators. Hence in the UK the number of stoats is controlled by the number of rabbits, not vice versa.

This failure of 'common sense' has lead to numerous examples of the introduction of predators in an attempt to control prey. It works at first, but as the predators wipe out a lot of the prey, the numbers of predators crashes, and the prey swell their ranks again. So you get a cyclical variation of both, with the peak in predators lagging the prey. which isn't usually the desired effect.

Songbird Survival is everything that conservation shouldn't be about. Emotive hate campaigns are backed up with anecdote but no science.

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/tech1.html?link=predators

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/magpies.html?link=predators

with interesting background on

http://www.againstcorvidtraps.co.uk/songbird_survival.html

Anecdote is fine to establish that something may be worth investigation, but no substitute for analysis.

Oh that it were that simple (that prey controlled predator numbers). This works fine for specialist predators such as Everglades Snail Kites but in practice the vast majority of predators are to some extent generalist or "switching predators". When the preferred prey is not available they switch to something else but continue to prey upon the preferred prey should they come across it and their numbers are not affected by the preferred prey's decline. So.... Hen harriers take grouse if they come across them but should grouse decline then the HHs will switch to meadow pipits or wader chicks.

In the case of Grey Squirrels songbirds are unlikely to be a limiting factor in their case. I think (and have thought for a long time) that Grey Squirrels are behind the decline in Hawfinch, Willow Tit and Nightingale across much of England... in some cases (such as Herts.) to the point of extinction. The disappearance of Willow Tits from the Lee Valley coincides almost perfectly with the colonisation of Grey Squirrels (around 1985)

Poisoning with warfarin-laced grain in special hoppers in areas without Dormice seems to be the most effective control measure:

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/greysquirrel

Warfarin has very low toxicity for birds so can be safely employed. If I lived in UK I would certainly have one of these hoppers in the garden.

ALAN DICKINSON · May 30, 2006

If you need to be familiar with someone elses report to see that Grey squirrels are a real menace you must live, work and birdwatch on the treeless parts of the fens or do all these things with your eyes shut if this menace was dealt with there is no doubt in my mind this other group you speak of would have little to complain about because songbird and red squirell numbers would increase and no-one on this thread has advocated a cull on Sparrowhawks nor is that likely

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