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Old Tuesday 4th December 2012, 11:17   #26
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As Dan wrote, phase detect AF on the Sony and Nikon is "possible" by using some of the pixels for that purpose. The sensor is really a contrast detect AF hybrid sensor.

This is probably why the reports about the cameras using it are not very keen on their focusing speed and capabilities.

No doubt that manufacturers will find a way to use real phase detect sensors in mirrorless cameras in the near future. Give me that with a long prime on a MFT camera and I'll be more than happy...
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Old Tuesday 4th December 2012, 12:16   #27
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As Dan wrote, phase detect AF on the Sony and Nikon is "possible" by using some of the pixels for that purpose. The sensor is really a contrast detect AF hybrid sensor.

This is probably why the reports about the cameras using it are not very keen on their focusing speed and capabilities.
Well, of course, but I don’t see how PDAF on sensor could be done in another way. I’m not seeing manufacturers placing dedicated AF sensors in front of the imaging sensor.

As far as reports about them, I didn’t pay much attention to Sonys yet, but I’ve seen mixed opinions about the 1 series, some people talk poorly about it in low light, witch makes sense since in low light the camera’s AF reverts to CDAF alone and Nikon’s CDAF is really not the best out there. But in good light when PDAF sensors work the camera seems to behave quite well, certainly better than any M4/3.
There’s a bird photographer in Spain doing very good images with a V1 and both a 300 and 500 VR, even flight shots.

Anyway, this is a very recent tech, so it’s normal it isn’t perfectly tuned yet, but I expect it to be as good as a DSLR in a generation or two.

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No doubt that manufacturers will find a way to use real phase detect sensors in mirrorless cameras in the near future. Give me that with a long prime on a MFT camera and I'll be more than happy...
You and me both, with a m4/3 camera even a 300 F4 would do for me, with a set of TCs it would be perfect for a lot of images.
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Old Tuesday 4th December 2012, 16:09   #28
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Well, let's dream about the 300mm f/4 prime... There are rumors that Olympus may come out with one... I'm going to buy a Panasonic 100-300mm later today, just because there are no other long zooms except the Oly 75-300mm which is slow and over priced. As soon as something else comes up, it will be gone !!!

My knowledge of focusing systems is quite limited and I merely report what I read. Reviews of the mirrorless Sony, Nikon and Canon are so-so for focusing on moving objects. So PDAF doesn't seem to work that well for them.
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Old Wednesday 5th December 2012, 08:35   #29
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I'm going to buy a Panasonic 100-300mm later today, just because there are no other long zooms except the Oly 75-300mm which is slow and over priced. As soon as something else comes up, it will be gone !!!
Let us (me :-) ) how you get on with it. I've been looking at the oly or that one to have a small walk around birding set. Some say the oly is somewhat better image quality, but overpriced as you said.
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Old Wednesday 5th December 2012, 09:29   #30
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Let us (me :-) ) how you get on with it. I've been looking at the oly or that one to have a small walk around birding set. Some say the oly is somewhat better image quality, but overpriced as you said.
I guess I can give you my opinion on that also.
I used mine for a couple of months and sold it two days ago.
IMO is a very good lens optically speaking, it's quite sharp wide open. I compared it with a Nikkor 300mm F4 AF-S and a 300mm F4 ED AIS side by side on the G5, it's actually sharper than both of them wide open, and the AIS really doesn't stand a chance.
Ok, in all fairness, the primes are a stop faster wide open and they do keep up stopped down to F/5.6. Nevertheless I found that impressive, the 100-300 is a small, cheap, plastic body lens, basically a consumer lens, the fact that it held it's own against a 300 F4 is very respectable.

The OIS worked fine too, I was able to get slighly over 3 stops from it.

Now, not everything is so good, AF is a pain, plain and simple, I don't know if it's the lens itself or it's the CDAF system fault as this was the only lens I used on m4/3. Most will say it's CDAF fault, I don't know.
On static subjects it worked fine, photos are sharp and correctly focused, but anything moving and I get better acuracy manual focusing my scope with trap focus.
I'm not saying you can't get good moving subject photos, but keepers rate is low, I had a lot of almost focused images, but very few critically sharp images.

In short, it's a good lens because it's cheap, with good image quality, has a 600mm FOV, and is very small and easy to carry in the field. But is let down for it's AF system for action photos. At least this was my experience with my sample
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Old Wednesday 5th December 2012, 13:22   #31
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Thanks for your review Fernando. I probably read everything on the Web about the Olympus and Panasonic 300mm lenses and was aware of those shortcomings. I'm still dreaming of a 300mm prime... in the mean time, this one will do.

Cango, if I compile all the reviews and comments I've read about the 2 lenses, it looks like a draw in terms of image quality. If you are pixel peeping, there may be a small advantage for the Oly, but the speed of the lens kills it. There is also the price: it's 300$ more...

I'm eager to try the OM-D with the 12-50mm lens for regular digiscoping. The lens focuses internally and doesn't move when zooming - it has 52mm filter threads. I have a Pentax 80ED and 2 fine eyepieces: the outstanding Pentax XW-20 and the 21mm Baader Hyperion. In theory, if it works, it will give me a 500-2000mm autofocus IS zoom. Well, we'll see... Can anybody venture an opinion ? Will it work ?

Then I'll try it with my astro scope. I have yet to decide about the coupling method.
  1. I can buy a new 2" adapter from CNC Supply. Expensive, about 100$.
  2. I can use the one I already have with a cheap MFT-EOS adapter. It introduces one more source for movement, light and vibration.
  3. Or buy a simple M42 adapter.
What do you guys think ?
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Old Friday 14th December 2012, 23:10   #32
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See this thread, post no. 4. Do you think I can do better ?
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Old Saturday 15th December 2012, 02:15   #33
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Sorry, forgot to include the URL to the thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=246409
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Old Saturday 15th December 2012, 10:10   #34
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I think in prime focus you would be sharper at that range, maybe getting near to what the camera lens only photo was showing. I know my own bank note photos taken through the scope are as good as your camera lens one.

I got hold of a friends Pentax PF80ED a few years ago and just compared my Hyperion 17mm to his Pentax XW eyepiece. I thought then that photographically the Hyperion was easily a match for the XW. We only compared them on long range targets though. Your test seems to show that the Hyperion has quite an edge over the XW. We have to remember though that eyepieces are generally only designed to be good for looking through and visually the XW might be worth the price tag. How would you rate them in that respect?

I did a bit of digging around and found the thread where I posted my test photos and the Hyperion one was better than the one through a Pentax XW-20 eyepiece on a PF80ED spotting scope. The XW-20 eyepiece showed quite a bit of distortion. See here http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=121897

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Old Saturday 15th December 2012, 15:20   #35
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Thanks for your reply Paul, much appreciated.

I'm eager to try the OM-D with the Astro-Tech 80ED. I'll be more than happy if it performs better than the Pentax PF-80ED, as you suspect. Test next week hopefully...

I posted examples of distortion and CA with my 2 eyepieces, the Pentax and the Baader, in the other thread:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=246409

Regards
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Old Saturday 15th December 2012, 16:11   #36
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The OM-D on an 80/600 ED is a killer!
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Old Saturday 15th December 2012, 16:54   #37
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Thanks for your reply Paul, much appreciated.

I'm eager to try the OM-D with the Astro-Tech 80ED. I'll be more than happy if it performs better than the Pentax PF-80ED, as you suspect. Test next week hopefully...

I posted examples of distortion and CA with my 2 eyepieces, the Pentax and the Baader, in the other thread:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=246409

Regards
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Well... let's hope the police will be after me for a few kills also.
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2013, 20:05   #38
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...
That is because it's an adapter for Olympus OM-mount to regular Four Thirds mount (with af-chip) This one goes into yet another adapter - a four thirds to MICRO four thirds mount adapter.

...
Hi Carlos,

(referring to an early post in this thread)

What 4/3 - m4/3 adapter are you using? The original Olympus or another make?

Why did you not consider using an OM-m4/3 adapter instead? Is it because you wanted the AF confirm support? Or to be able to use your 4/3 lenses eg 50-200?

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Old Wednesday 13th March 2013, 20:56   #39
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Hi Carlos,

(referring to an early post in this thread)

What 4/3 - m4/3 adapter are you using? The original Olympus or another make?

Why did you not consider using an OM-m4/3 adapter instead? Is it because you wanted the AF confirm support? Or to be able to use your 4/3 lenses eg 50-200?

/Tord
I use an olympus, not the latest one though (which is weathersealed). and yes, to be able to use the 4/3 lenses I have - 50mm macro, 12-60mm and the 50-200 mk1. And as a result, I got to keep the same adapters to the scope. Now that it seems to be an E-7, I'm not so sure to go m4/3 all the way. I plan to keep the om-d for the next 3-4 years, at least. (or til it breaks). But if the OM-D Pro has pdaf support, I might get one (cheap) in 3-4 years time instead - I'm not sure I'd go back to an OVF.
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2013, 22:30   #40
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Thanks Carlos,

Makes sense. I have been considering an E-M5 to replace one of my two E-620 (display is more or less dead on one of them), as a general purpose carry around camera and possibly also to use as body on the SW scope. What is your experience of using the EVF for manual focus, compared to the optical view finder?

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PS where have you got this E7 related information from?
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Old Thursday 14th March 2013, 06:29   #41
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What I like with the evf is that I'm able to zoom/enlarge the focus area (focus assist, I think it's called) and it's very helpful with the scope. It's a small camera though, and some are not bothered by it. The good thing is that you have the option of a two-way grip. The bad is that the grip is somewhat expensive. There are third party grips that are cheaper, but the original grip let you have two batteries and works in portrait mode. Eventually I'll get one.

The E-7 (or E-5 successor, since no name has yet been revealed) is yet a rumour http://www.43rumors.com/ft4-trusted-...sure/#comments

but several indications tells that it strongly seems to be a release for october/november of a 4/3s body and a om-d pro model. In time we'll see if it's true.
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Old Thursday 14th March 2013, 12:23   #42
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Hi Guys,

I like my OM-D quite a bit. It is small, light weight and well made. IQ is very good and focus is lightling quick on stationary objects (but so-so in BIF).

I like the EVF better than the OVF on my Canon 50D. Yes there is a small delay after the picture is taken but having a fast responsive live view not affected by outside light is very nice. For manual focus, I prefer the mock focus peaking function to the 10X zoom view when using a long lens because it vibrates too much, even with a stable camera and IS on.

One function I like a lot is touching the LCD to focus on that spot and instantly take the picture. Very nice !

What I don't like is the way focusing is implemented on this camera. It is the camera that decides where to focus, not the user. I agree that it works fine most of the time but there are occasions where it is a nightmare. Manual focus is mandatory to take a picture of a bird in branches as the camera will always focus on a branch in front of the bird. I really miss the ability to be able to focus on a small spot, like my 50D did

I also miss a prime long lens. The Panasonic 100-300mm is nice but not as sharp as my Canon 300mm with the 1.4X TC. The Oly 75-300mm is not better. There are no other choices.

Regards
J
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Old Thursday 14th March 2013, 23:40   #43
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I also miss a prime long lens. The Panasonic 100-300mm is nice but not as sharp as my Canon 300mm with the 1.4X TC. The Oly 75-300mm is not better. There are no other choices.

Regards
J
There is this option: http://www.tokinalens.com/tokina/pro...0mmf63mfmacro/ A fair way short of the ideal lens we're looking for, but at least it shows they're trying to provide something that matches the benefits of the M4/3rds system. Manual focus and those tell-tale mirror lens out-of-focus highlights are the downsides (and I'm not sure that it has the highest image quality) but the size and weight (plus low cost) are in its favour. It also focusses close at 0.8m for a 1:2 macro ratio as well.

Somewhere there'll be the ideal compromise between focal length and maximum aperture that gives us plenty of reach without destroying the size/weight advantages of the system. Perhaps a close-focussing 350mm F6.3, made of high quality plastic with a 'collapsible' construction for ease of transportation, opening out to a lens long enough to hand-hold comfortably and with the provision of a quick-fitting tripod mount for a steadier set-up.

I've finally 'bitten the bullet' and sent for an OM-D EM5, initially with the 15-50mm and I'll probably get the Panasonic 100-300mm though I've also ordered the OM adapter to fit my old 35mm film camera lenses - I've got the older Sigma 400mm F5.6 Apo in OM-fit which is a good lens and quite a bit smaller and lighter than the similar spec 400mm Apo/Macro HSM that I've been using on my Canon DSLRs. I love this set-up but I'm not getting any younger and they can be a bit heavy to carry around all day - especially when on holiday in warmer climes!
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Old Friday 15th March 2013, 11:12   #44
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There is this option: http://www.tokinalens.com/tokina/pro...0mmf63mfmacro/ A fair way short of the ideal lens we're looking for, but at least it shows they're trying to provide something that matches the benefits of the M4/3rds system.
Have you ever tried a mirror lens ???? I have and, believe me, stay away ! They have been available for years and, as a token of their quality, look how many used ones are available for peanuts on eBay.

Regards
Jules
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Old Friday 15th March 2013, 12:40   #45
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Mirror lenses are basically crap. Cheep, light, compact etc etc, BUT.. horrible bokeh (rings) bad contrast...etc etc. Only good thing is they have no CA.
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Old Saturday 16th March 2013, 01:30   #46
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Angry

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Have you ever tried a mirror lens ???? I have and, believe me, stay away ! They have been available for years and, as a token of their quality, look how many used ones are available for peanuts on eBay.

Regards
Jules
Sorry, Jules. My use of 'British understatement' obviously went over your head - 'a fair way short of ideal' means exactly what you and Dan C Licks are saying! But I was replying to your statement that 'there are no other choices.'

And, yes, I have indeed tried a mirror lens, though I only used an Olympus 500mm F8 version that belonged to a friend of mine (I eventually sold him my Zuiko 300mm F4.5 to replace his 500mm when he got rid of it - and I replaced that 300mm lens with the Sigma 400mm refered to in my previous post).

My EM-5 arrived safely today - it's clear that I'll have to spend a bit of time with the instruction manual in order to set it up to my needs and familiarise myself with it. What a shame that they've included a thick book which only has the basic instructions (in 28 languages!) but the detailed instructions are on the CD which can only be read on a computer This may be OK with a cheap compact camera where many users will only use the full program mode, but with a full-spec enthusiasts' model costing over £1000 this is totally out of order!
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Old Saturday 16th March 2013, 07:34   #47
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My EM-5 arrived safely today - it's clear that I'll have to spend a bit of time with the instruction manual in order to set it up to my needs and familiarise myself with it. What a shame that they've included a thick book which only has the basic instructions (in 28 languages!) but the detailed instructions are on the CD which can only be read on a computer This may be OK with a cheap compact camera where many users will only use the full program mode, but with a full-spec enthusiasts' model costing over £1000 this is totally out of order!
Hi Adey

Below are links to articles you may find useful and guiding you in customizing the EM-5.
http://www.ayton.id.au/wiki/doku.php...usem5_settings
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/911...ympus-e-m5#UI3

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Old Saturday 16th March 2013, 10:18   #48
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Hi Adey

Below are links to articles you may find useful and guiding you in customizing the EM-5.
http://www.ayton.id.au/wiki/doku.php...usem5_settings
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/911...ympus-e-m5#UI3

/Tord
Many thanks for those links,Tord. I'm just going to install the CD onto my computer now, so those links will be useful when I've read through the instruction book.

I've also got the rather pleasant task of choosing which 'free' accessory I'd like for my EM-5. There's a special offer on with all purchases of this camera until the end of this month. I can either have the 2 part battery grip plus spare battery or the 45mm F1.8 lens plus spare battery.

With the Olympus alone I could soon get used to the small size of the camera, but I'll still retain my Canon system, so swapping from one to another could mean the battery grip would be the best choice - though I have bought the Olympus mainly for those occasions (holidays, etc.) when the small size is most useful.

On the other hand, the kit lens that came with the camera has a maximum aperture of F6.3 at the long end, and the compact 45mm F1.8 lens does have a reputation as being one of the sharpest lenses in the M4/3rds system.

Whichever, the spare battery would have been an almost essential purchase anyway, so that's £60 saved towards that 'ideal' telephoto lens, whenever it comes out!
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Old Saturday 16th March 2013, 11:48   #49
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Many thanks for those links,Tord. I'm just going to install the CD onto my computer now, so those links will be useful when I've read through the instruction book.
Adey,

I strongly suggest you read the dPreview article suggested by Tord BEFORE you read the manual. It will make your life much easier.

Enjoy
Jules
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Old Saturday 16th March 2013, 12:17   #50
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Adey,

I strongly suggest you read the dPreview article suggested by Tord BEFORE you read the manual. It will make your life much easier.

Enjoy
Jules
Thanks, Jules. I see what you mean - a quick scroll through the whole book shows an awful lot of unneccessary stuff to sift through before getting to what's really needed!

Incidentally, as this thread was originally about M4/3rds and 'scopes, I have a Leica 77mm Apo scope with both the 800mm photo adapter and digiscoping kit so I'll be giving them both a try out when I'm familiar with the camera (and when we get some decent weather!). I've never fully used the photo adapter as conventional-sized SLRs were always a bit too large to perch on the end of the lens (I have the angled version of the scope) so the EM-5 may prove better-balanced.
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