Differences in alpha companies? (1 Viewer)

Are there any major differences between Leica, SW, Zeiss companies in philosophy, goals, product development, etc?

I am not asking the "best binocular" question,
but any general differences between the alpha leaders?

Zeiss seems to have the history,
SW the current status,
Leica ?

edj

or is just 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other?

edwincjones said:

Are there any major differences between Leica, SW, Zeiss companies in philosophy, goals, product development, etc?

I am not asking the "best binocular" question,
but any general differences between the alpha leaders?

Zeiss seems to have the history,
SW the current status,
Leica ?

edj

Click to expand...

I'd add to your list--

Size, relative & absolute
Corporate History
Ownership

edwincjones said:

Are there any major differences between Leica, SW, Zeiss companies in philosophy, goals, product development, etc?

I am not asking the "best binocular" question,
but any general differences between the alpha leaders?

Zeiss seems to have the history,
SW the current status,
Leica ?

edj

Click to expand...

Hi Ed:

They’re all just trying to stay in business.

For years, they have provided the shoulders that the others stand on, and the underbellies the others suck from. Again, I don’t have a horse in the race, but the ramifications of what the consumer is doing to the Alphas are staggering.

I have been amazed at how people will tout the wonderfulness of a binocular imported by a company that might have not existed 10 years ago, because it sells for the price of a single person eating out . . . once. And collimation? . . . what’s that? It’s not so great a problem on Birdforum, but BF is not the only forum out here.

Real differences? I hear that if your name isn’t Swarovski you will never be on their board. So far, it’s a family thing.

There are subtle differences in each model of Alphas. Those differences are made to seem MASSIVE through advertising and talk on these forums. Figures don’t lie, but can certainly be manipulated for the masses that don’t understand.

While doing ATM Journal, I received a letter from a fellow who had designed the best telescope, ever. The graphic he presented to represent his work, showed ALL the spots of a spot diagram packed into an infinitesimally small dot in the middle of an Airy Disc. I was excited, and immediately typed it into Zemax-EE for the graphic I needed for the next issue—it was one of those “Hold the presses” moments.

At THAT time, the spot diagram would have taken a bank of nine, 15-inch monitors to display it all. This avid and well-meaning lens designer didn’t understand that visual and photographic optics need to be designed around more than ONE wavelength!!! His heart was in the right place: his head was not. His “advertising” good: his “product” not so good.

Those who are into birding would be happy with almost any “Alpha.” Those who spend their time arguing and discussing their search for the “perfect” binocular, will never be.

Just a thought,

Bill

edwincjones said:

Are there any major differences between Leica, SW, Zeiss companies in philosophy, goals, product development, etc?

I am not asking the "best binocular" question,
but any general differences between the alpha leaders?

Zeiss seems to have the history,
SW the current status,
Leica ?

edj

Click to expand...

We've got some industry insiders who might want to spill the beans but who are sworn to secrecy ere they should not receive free samples to try or be allowed to work the booths at trade shows (no, I'm not talking about you, Steve C., we're talking alphas, here ), but I think one could extrapolate the companies' intentions by their marketing, products, product roll out, customer service and repairs.

LEICA

Leica seems to be the most conservative of the bunch and the least concerned with dominating the market. They got their niche and seem to be happy with filling it, though the Ultravid is becoming somewhat long in the tooth compared to the other alphas, but consider how long it took to get from the original Trinovid to the Ultravid, and that doesn't seem to be unusual.

Even though the customer service repairs have improved, reports have still been somewhat "spotty," so it doesn't look like they are willing to go the extra mile to win new converts and hold on to repeat customers who are being courted other premium brands with the new bells and whistles and better customer service and repair records. Leica relies heavily on its "diehard" fan base. But the company has won a few converts, for example, Annabeth who loves her new 8x42 Trinnie.

Although the Trinny suffers from a reputation that precedes itself, it does offer would-be Leica fans a quality bin that can be had as demos for around $1300.

The other two, three if you count Nikon, which I think you should since the EDG is an "alpha," seem more intent on new product development and trying to expand their customer base. Zeiss and Nikon in particular are interested in reaching customers of different age groups and income levels. Swaro, not so much. The customers buying their top shelf bins are the same ones buying their pricey compacts.

SWAROVSKI

Swaro's goal is to continue to dominate the high-end hunting optics market and secondarily, make inroads in capturing more of the birding segment. For example, their trip to Extremadura upon the launch of their 50mm SV ELs. They didn't take their guests there to hunt for wild boar, deer and moufflon.

Swaro's focus continues to be on optics for hunting, that's their meat and potatoes, and the new 56mm SLC series reflects that.

They also have the reputation for excellent customer service and repair service. They are #1 and they want to stay that way.

The company's idea of an "entry-level bin" is a $900 CL Companion. If they want to compete with Nikon and Zeiss to broaden their base, they will need to "limbo a little lower now," but it doesn't look like they are willing to bend that far back. Apparently, they are more worried about "tainting" the brand than Zeiss.

ZEISS

Zeiss seems to be aiming to carve out a bigger niche in the hunting optics market segment, as became obvious with the launch of the HT, but Zeiss bins have always been popular with birders, so they will cater to them as well, and by upgrading the Conquest series with ED glass and wider FsOV, they have gained more birders as customers. Mission accomplished, just pay more attention to the height of the eyecups!

With the new 54 HT series, they were hoping to compete head to head with Swaro, but it looks like those models will require a redesign. Swaro moves ahead two squares. Zeiss will need to offer more attractive pricing to catch up.

With the Terra ED, Zeiss is reaching out to the common man, knocking elbows with the Nikon Monarch and Bushnell Ultra customers to see who can get the blister packs off first. Good product, but again, a too fast focuser! Put your quarter in and try again.

Occasionally, you get bad reports on customer service or repairs, but overall, they seem to be willing to stand behind their products.

NIKON

Nikon set the benchmark for being the company that has something for everybody. They had some goofs over the past few years, the EDG One and Undone and the Monarch Malcolm X, and now the unpainted rings on the Monarch 7s.

And they discontinued the premium Porro that for decades had set the benchmark by which other bins were measured, the SE series, and they no longer sell the EII in the U.S. Two BIG GOOFs, IMO. So you charge a bit more per unit for us porromaniacs to help offset slow sales. By not doing that, they have let Swaro dominate the market in premium porros.

And they left the HGL to grow moldy with age instead of updating it with features that even their $300 bins have. So they have some work to do. (NOTE: I am available for product development consultation).

Nikon's customer service and repairs seem to be pretty good in the U.S., not as good in Europe. An area that needs improvement.

Despite some missteps, Nikon continues to offer a wider range of products than any other manufacturer. They get points for trying to bridge the inequality gap and for making good quality products at an affordable price.

Nikon's philosophy seems to be "a pair of binoculars in every pot." Except in Colorado, where it's "free pot with every pair of binoculars." :smoke:

Brock

Practice makes perfect. Nicely written, Brock. :t:

Ed

Brock,

I don't think Swarovski looks at the 8x30 and 10x30 CL Companion binoculars as entry level. They replace the 8x30SLC which had the size and weight of an 8x32.

Swarovski saw a market for high quality, all purpose, lightweight, easily carried binoculars and moved into it. One can even buy them in 3 different colors.

Bob

PS: Swarovski's Habicht Porros are unique in that they have to be specially ordered. I think this has been the procedure for a long time. I wonder if Swarovski is the only binocular company in the world set up to do something like this and make a profit from it?

These essentially custom made binoculars always cost more than the Nikon SEs and EIIs did. Also the three Swarovski models do not share interchangeable parts like the Nikon SEs and EIIs do; which had much to do with why the Nikons sold for as long as they did.

edwincjones said:

Are there any major differences between Leica, SW, Zeiss companies in philosophy, goals, product development, etc?

I am not asking the "best binocular" question,
but any general differences between the alpha leaders?

Zeiss seems to have the history,
SW the current status,
Leica ?

edj

Click to expand...

All three are mid sized enterprises operating out of a very high cost area of the world. They all needed to be agile to survive, which means finding end markets where price is not just cost plus 50%.
So Zeiss became huge in eye glasses, Swarovski the premier player in crystal (think Swarovski Star atop the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree) and Leica did neither but went through reorganizations. Binoculars have been cash cows for all three firms, which is why none of them is offering innovation such as image stabilization or digital viewing, because that would require very expensive real change.
Imho, in the binocular market these firms are in danger of becoming the Bausch and Lombs of our day, because the gains they offer at huge cost are too small, relative to the much lower cost of Chinese sourced gear. Zeiss is clearly a step ahead here with the China built Terra and Leica has a link to Panasonic in cameras that could become a lifeline, but Swarovski seems to be betting on Europe and fashion. That may actually be the safest strategy,
as we are unlikely to run out of wealthy buyers of optics and bling.

Innovations such as image stabilization and digital viewing would also require a "throw away todays binocular and buy tomorrows" marketing approach or a quantum step in the direction of much longer lasting technology.

I wonder what either of them would cost?

Bob

ceasar said:

Brock,

I don't think Swarovski looks at the 8x30 and 10x30 CL Companion binoculars as entry level. They replace the 8x30SLC which had the size and weight of an 8x32.

Swarovski saw a market for high quality, all purpose, lightweight, easily carried binoculars and moved into it. One can even buy them in 3 different colors.

Bob

PS: Swarovski's Habicht Porros are unique in that they have to be specially ordered. I think this has been the procedure for a long time. I wonder if Swarovski is the only binocular company in the world set up to do something like this and make a profit from it?

These essentially custom made binoculars always cost more than the Nikon SEs and EIIs did. Also the three Swarovski models do not share interchangeable parts like the Nikon SEs and EIIs do; which had much to do with why the Nikons sold for as long as they did.

Click to expand...

"The new CL is a binocular of value..." "it gives us a new market for someone who's never had the experience of joining the Swarovski family of optics"

Let's go to the video:

CL Companion video

There was an earlier promo by Swaro where they said the CL was made for new buyers "to enter the Swarovski family of optics." Can't find it now, but I interpreted that as their idea of an entry level bin. After all, for Swaro $900 is as low as they limbo unless you buy a compact, which you limbo $100 lower. Still the most expensive compact on the market (outside of Swaro's diamond studded models or Leica's faux ostrich skin models), but of the plain vanilla alpha compacts.

My point was and continues to be, though you always poo-pah it when I mention it, that almost every owner of the CL I know also owns a Swaro alpha level bin. In that sense, it's a "companion" bin.

It's possible that outside of our little microcosm, there are first time Swaro buyers who are buying the CL Companion as their main bin, but not so much here on BF. Annabeth was the only one I know of, and she sold hers and went to the Leica Trinny as her main birding bin.

Brock

elkcub said:

Practice makes perfect. Nicely written, Brock. :t:

Ed

Click to expand...

Thanks, Ed. I was supposed to be writing about "non-field services" (profiles of a law firm and an accounting firm that serve the shale gas industry) but I was so bored, I had to write something more interesting.

Brock

brocknroller said:

"The new CL is a binocular of value..." "it gives us a new market for someone who's never had the experience of joining the Swarovski family of optics"

Let's go to the video:

CL Companion video

There was an earlier promo by Swaro where they said the CL was made for new buyers "to enter the Swarovski family of optics." Can't find it now, but I interpreted that as their idea of an entry level bin. After all, for Swaro $900 is as low as they limbo unless you buy a compact, which you limbo $100 lower. Still the most expensive compact on the market (outside of Swaro's diamond studded models or Leica's faux ostrich skin models), but of the plain vanilla alpha compacts.

My point was and continues to be, though you always poo-pah it when I mention it, that almost every owner of the CL I know also owns a Swaro alpha level bin. In that sense, it's a "companion" bin.

It's possible that outside of our little microcosm, there are first time Swaro buyers who are buying the CL Companion as their main bin, but not so much here on BF. Annabeth was the only one I know of, and she sold hers and went to the Leica Trinny as her main birding bin.

Brock

Click to expand...

I thought that is what I said. It's not an entry level binocular. It doesn't much matter what they said if they never acted on it by marketing it as one, so don't waste your time looking for it. The guy in the Pittsburgh video calls the "new" market the "thousand dollar market." The old 8x30 SLC was in that price range, (same as the 8x32 LX L; I remember because I had a hard time choosing between them) and AFAIK they never marketed it as an entry level binocular.

And I never did "poo pah" any statement you made about almost every owner of a CL also owning another Swarovski alpha! I agree with it.

Bob

edwincjones said:

Are there any major differences between Leica, SW, Zeiss companies in philosophy, goals, product development, etc?

I am not asking the "best binocular" question,
but any general differences between the alpha leaders?

Zeiss seems to have the history,
SW the current status,
Leica ?

edj

Click to expand...

Since this thread is about the Green, Blue and Red label (however when we visit them and the lighttransmission graphics are shown there is always also a Yellow line present, which may say something about Green, Blue and Red's attention for that brand) I won't turn it into a Yellow show, like some other poster succeeds doing.

First there is a big difference between these brands regarding the Customer Service approach.

At Leica's, Customer Service (as I'm told by them) have to keep up their own pants. Ofcourse they have a budget, but they are seen primarely as an production unit and not as an service unit (which alway costs money).
From the past Leica's CS was not involved in the development stage of the optics, resulting in the finest optics but in pain-in-the-ass-to-repair optics (read: repairs are therefor by definition expensive). Now-a-days CS is also present at the drawingboard which by definition results in much more cheaper to repair optical products.

At Swarovski's the CS approach is quite different. Some outstanders claim (I've never got it (un)officially confirmed, but only denied) that the customer pays an amount of money extra to make a contribution to Swarovski's CS in advance, to realize their outstanding performance of service.
At Swarovski there is an extreem perception of service towards the customer. One example is the "fameous" bone for the dog. We can be cynical about it and regard this as an "nothing is for free" approach, but the employee who handled this service matter on this way is only showing that he/she understands fully the roots of Swarovski's perception of customer support.

Zeiss is a go-in-between story in this matter.
In Holland both Leica and Swarovski don't have a Dutch Repair Center, but all items are shipped to their plant.
Zeiss however was represented by an distributor who had a very well skilled repair department and to an certain level, all repairs were done in house, with the same attitude as Swarovski has!!
More difficult repairs were done in Wetzlar and here the confusion for the customers emerge. Often these repairs came with a bill, while other (Dutch) repairs (some of them were absolutely not falling under the guarantee restrictions) came without a bill because of the distributors approach of CS.
That is why we hear in Holland drama and halleluja stories about Zeiss CS.
From June 2014 Zeiss do their own distribution in Holland and in my last conversation with some Zeiss guys (of who we can be sure of they know what they are talking about), the Zeiss CS approach will be like the Swarovski approach worldwide!!

Optic business is as any other bussiness. They have to make money otherwise the employees won't have a living. The best way to make a living is to keep the customer happy, so the employees are aware to the fullest (to some extend) that the customer has to be treated like he is the king. It does not matter for them if this is the dealer/customer/press etc. Everybody dealing with Swaro gets special attention. Again: we can be cynical about it and say that there is nothing for free, but this is the Swarovski filosofy: Make the best better (on every level),

At Zeiss I was sometime confronted with an "We are Zeiss and we know what is best, because we do this for years" attitude, resulting in a one-way-street conversation and positiv remarks were often concidered as critics and by that means as an attack on their superiority.
These days are over!!
Mike's way of communicating with BF members is a perfect example of this.:t:

Leica is moving in a different direction.
IMHO they want to be seen as an niche brand worldwide (they are sold extremelly well in China under the new millionairs club) and are sometimes pushing old established small dealers aside with stock and presentation demands which are not real because of the fact sales down her are for Swaro and Zeiss.
Time will tell if this is the right track. Personally I think it can only be accomplished if it is supported by the newest and latest technology, and I have not seen much of these lately:C:C.


Jan

if there is little difference between brands
of equal quality binoculars
then CS seems like a reason to buy one over the other

I have a alpha zeiss, sw, and leica
while there are differences,
when comparing quality of optics, mechanics, feel
I cannot say one is any better, or worse, than the other

edj

edwincjones said:

if there is little difference between brands
of equal quality binoculars
then CS seems like a reason to buy one over the other

I have a alpha zeiss, sw, and leica
while there are differences,
when comparing quality of optics, mechanics, feel
I cannot say one is any better, or worse, than the other

edj

Click to expand...

When spending the money, all are real close in price and performance then yes warranty and CS does play a big part in the decision process.

Call me a fanboy, I call it a smart consumer protecting my investment.

Bryce...

I'm currently using Swaro (3), Zeiss, Leica, Meopta (S2 scope), Nikon (ED50 scope), Zen-Ray (2), Bushnell, etc.

In actual use, the only difference I think about, beyond what I just like better, is service. It is reassuring to know that Swaro's customer service is as good as it gets. I've never needed it though. Meopta and Zen-Ray seem really good too. Leica and Nikon somewhat iffy. Vocal complaints seem to get you further with those two, especially Nikon.

Actually the only one that (so far) needed service was the Zeiss, which had to go back to Germany. Worked out fine, but took a couple months, and heck I don't live in Germany. Visited many times though, got engaged in Breisach. :t:

Mark

ceasar said:

Innovations such as image stabilization and digital viewing would also require a "throw away todays binocular and buy tomorrows" marketing approach or a quantum step in the direction of much longer lasting technology.

I wonder what either of them would cost?

Bob

Click to expand...

Agree entirely, just not sure which direction will prevail.
Lots of digital components are already plenty robust, SD cards, displays, sensors, autofocus mechanisms, so that approach looks realistic, but the half billion plus annual output of digital phones is lowering costs to the point where a throw away also becomes a possibility. Costs will be less in either case imho, because the components are getting steadily cheaper as they ride the learning curve.

I agree with you guys about the Alpha Companies, Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica and Nikon but you need to consider Vortex Optics in that listing too. I believe Swarovski and Zeiss do care about the birding market and gives you guys equal billing as with the hunting and shooting markets. Steiner has also got my attention and respect adding their new warranty covering all of their older model binoculars this year. These companies do listen to their customers but change in production and design can take years and is very costly. Examples are: Take a look at Nikon how many design changes did they have in the past few years in the Monarch line, I count 5 or 6. Digital Camera Binocular and spotting scopes had their calling in the industry but is all but gone now. Canon, Nikon and Fujion Image Stable binoculars have not changed much in years. Even if their is major changes in technology it does not always pass quickly to the birding market as it does for the shooting, astronomy and camera hobbies. Just my thoughts for being in the business for over 30 years.

Mike

jan van daalen said:

...Leica is moving in a different direction. IMHO they want to be seen as an niche brand worldwide...I think it can only be accomplished if it is supported by the newest and latest technology, and I have not seen much of these lately:C:C.

Click to expand...

I agree that Leica doesn't seem very innovative. After all, the optical formula and focus design of the latest x32 and x42 Ultravids is essentially the same as the Ultra Trinovid BA of ~25 years ago! But Leica are still very appealing to me. Their x32 bins are very small--the best optics in the smallest package. And let's not forget that the pocket models, especially the 8x20 Ultravid BL, is still cutting-edge with respect to the competition.

--AP

Alexis Powell said:

I agree that Leica doesn't seem very innovative. After all, the optical formula and focus design of the latest x32 and x42 Ultravids is essentially the same as the Ultra Trinovid BA of ~25 years ago! But Leica are still very appealing to me. Their x32 bins are very small--the best optics in the smallest package. And let's not forget that the pocket models, especially the 8x20 Ultravid BL, is still cutting-edge with respect to the competition.

--AP

Click to expand...

Many folks on forums related to binoculars feel that to please the general public, the bino companies should be wasting tens of million dollars per month to make them happy. Actually, all you need is $50K more in advertising. The general public seems to think good optics are baked by elves in a hollow tree, anyway. Thus, seeing it in print makes it so! And, it keeps these forums humming with excitement. I'm one of . . . us, and like all the chatter. I've never had any class anyway. The serious birder will buy a good binocular, use it for years to come, and doesn't care about the chatter. |=o|