• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Birds and the Shooting fraternity (1 Viewer)

I agree MoS. In many walks of life, it tends to be the minority that act as spoiler - an analogy might be football holiganism from 1970s and 80s perhaps?

I would be full of admiration of these law abiding and knowledagble country-folk you mention helping to bring to boot those that are hell-bent on predator destruction. Where are all the rallying birder-shooters when you need them?

I also think that where situations have worsened rather than improved over time, I now wouldn't personally want to work with organisations who won't even accept what goes on and protect criminals and criminal activity. I also don't think I'm being biased here by saying it's not six of one and half-a-dozen of another. In the case of UK uplands I'm comfortable that I'm not being unfare to the shooting fratenity in holding them responsible for the destruction of ecosystems in the interests of sport and not conservation. Unless of course it's about conserving a way of life that benefits a tiny proportion of society.
 
Lots of interesting replies.

My origional post refered to two areas in particular where I met Pheasant Shooters refilling the blue bucket seed feeders for pheasants.
I revisited the areas today.
In area 1; a gorse bush habitat; I counted 7 Yellowhammer 2,Lesser Redpoll, and lots of Willow Warbler and Chaffinch in the immediate gorse area.
There was also a Stock Dove,a bird I see regulary here.
Two of the Yellowhammer were feeding from the ground below the seed feeders.
There are at least 9 Yellowhammers here this year and hopefully more after succesfull breeding.

In area 2; a gorse habitat with some boggy margins, there were 4 Reed Bunting,2 Stonechat[there is a family around],2 Common Snipe;one chipping,the other perching on a post, and the highest concentration of Skylark and Meadow Pipit on my walk[there were 38 Meadow Pipit,the majority around here].
There was also a Cuckoo nearby.
 
pratincol said:
Lots of interesting replies.

My origional post refered to two areas in particular where I met Pheasant Shooters refilling the blue bucket seed feeders for pheasants.
I revisited the areas today.
In area 1; a gorse bush habitat; I counted 7 Yellowhammer 2,Lesser Redpoll, and lots of Willow Warbler and Chaffinch in the immediate gorse area.
There was also a Stock Dove,a bird I see regulary here.
Two of the Yellowhammer were feeding from the ground below the seed feeders.
There are at least 9 Yellowhammers here this year and hopefully more after succesfull breeding.

In area 2; a gorse habitat with some boggy margins, there were 4 Reed Bunting,2 Stonechat[there is a family around],2 Common Snipe;one chipping,the other perching on a post, and the highest concentration of Skylark and Meadow Pipit on my walk[there were 38 Meadow Pipit,the majority around here].
There was also a Cuckoo nearby.
Click to expand...

any predators Pratincol?
 
To give a fuller picture of the area I have pasted my report

Burnsbeck Moss [ A Cumbria Wildlife Trust Reserve]

Greeted by a Grasshopper Warbler reeling near the reserve entrance,
There were also-
2 Sedge Warbler
4 Reed Bunting
A Common Snipe was chipping just off the reserve
3 Meadow Pipit
1 Buzzard
A few Willow Warbler and Chaffinch.
1 G.S. Woodpecker
2 Mistle Thrush
1 Garden Warbler singing.

Swarther Plantation[Focal point is the Heather habitat with boggy margins.The Pheasant shooters refill seed buckets.]

It is well worth checking the fenced off heather area on the east side of the road.
There was a Common Snipe on a fence post and another one chipping.
A male Stonechat was on a fence post and a juvenile on a wall near the road.
4 Reed Bunting
A family of Northern Wheatear just further on towards Wyndhammere;2 adults and 2 juvenile.
Lots of Skylark around here as well as many Meadow Pipit[38 on the whole walk]
1 Mistle Thrush
A Cuckoo was heard in the distance:probably the same one heard at Wakebarrow Scar East.

Kitmere Path- the heather area has no seed feeders.No indication who owns or manages this area.

Another area of heather on your right worth a close look.
A Common Snipe was heard chipping.
Another Cuckoo calling from the Kitmere area.
4 Reed Bunting
2 Linnet
1 Lesser Redpoll
4 Mistle Thrush
A few Skylark and Meadow Pipit.
A family of Stonechat were here a couple of weeks ago but not today.

The Heights- no seed feeders here neither.No indication who owns or manages the land.

There is yet another heather area just south west of The Heights.
For years I have wondered why I have never seen a Stonechat in here.
Today I heard one close by for the first time!
There was also a Curlew and some Meadow Pipit.
2 Lapwing were in the field south east of The Heights.

Wakebarrow Scar East- a large area.The focal point is Gorse Valley where the Pheasant shooters restock the blue bin seed feeders.

A good day to see and hear Yellowhammer in Gorse Valley;at least seven.
Also a lot of active Common Redstart:5 adults and 2 juveniles.
The Cuckoo heard from the Swarther Plantation could well have been the same one calling here.
2 Lesser Redpoll
1 Stock Dove
Several House Martin,Barn Swallow and Swift.
3 Curlew
2 Kestrel
2 Pied Wagtail
A few Willow Warbler and Chaffinch
 
Last edited:
pratincol said:
To give a fuller picture of the area I have pasted my report

Burnsbeck Moss [ A Cumbria Wildlife Trust Reserve]

Greeted by a Grasshopper Warbler reeling near the reserve entrance,
There were also-
2 Sedge Warbler
4 Reed Bunting
A Common Snipe was chipping just off the reserve
3 Meadow Pipit
1 Buzzard
A few Willow Warbler and Chaffinch.
1 G.S. Woodpecker
2 Mistle Thrush
1 Garden Warbler singing.

Swarther Plantation[Focal point is the Heather habitat with boggy margins.The Pheasant shooters refill seed buckets.]

It is well worth checking the fenced off heather area on the east side of the road.
There was a Common Snipe on a fence post and another one chipping.
A male Stonechat was on a fence post and a juvenile on a wall near the road.
4 Reed Bunting
A family of Northern Wheatear just further on towards Wyndhammere;2 adults and 2 juvenile.
Lots of Skylark around here as well as many Meadow Pipit[38 on the whole walk]
1 Mistle Thrush
A Cuckoo was heard in the distance:probably the same one heard at Wakebarrow Scar East.

Kitmere Path- the heather area has no seed feeders.No indication who owns or manages this area.

Another area of heather on your right worth a close look.
A Common Snipe was heard chipping.
Another Cuckoo calling from the Kitmere area.
4 Reed Bunting
2 Linnet
1 Lesser Redpoll
4 Mistle Thrush
A few Skylark and Meadow Pipit.
A family of Stonechat were here a couple of weeks ago but not today.

The Heights- no seed feeders here neither.No indication who owns or manages the land.

There is yet another heather area just south west of The Heights.
For years I have wondered why I have never seen a Stonechat in here.
Today I heard one close by for the first time!
There was also a Curlew and some Meadow Pipit.
2 Lapwing were in the field south east of The Heights.

Wakebarrow Scar East- a large area.The focal point is Gorse Valley where the Pheasant shooters restock the blue bin seed feeders.

A good day to see and hear Yellowhammer in Gorse Valley;at least seven.
Also a lot of active Common Redstart:5 adults and 2 juveniles.
The Cuckoo heard from the Swarther Plantation could well have been the same one calling here.
2 Lesser Redpoll
1 Stock Dove
Several House Martin,Barn Swallow and Swift.
3 Curlew
2 Kestrel
2 Pied Wagtail
A few Willow Warbler and Chaffinch
Click to expand...

But where are the Harriers? 1 buzzard and 1 kestrel is a pretty poor showing, I see both regularly over here along with Black and Red Kite, Sparrowhawks and the occasional Goshawk and Osprey. I even saw a White tailed Eagle about 1 hour north of here. My point being, it is possible to protect nature without the shooting fraternity, these upland moors should be nature reserves with free access for all life forms.
 
Andy Hurley said:
But where are the Harriers? 1 buzzard and 1 kestrel is a pretty poor showing, I see both regularly over here along with Black and Red Kite, Sparrowhawks and the occasional Goshawk and Osprey. I even saw a White tailed Eagle about 1 hour north of here. My point being, it is possible to protect nature without the shooting fraternity, these upland moors should be nature reserves with free access for all life forms.
Click to expand...

I agree. That is a symptom of a deep illness: I live in central Farnborough but Buzzards, Red Kites and Sparrowhawks are daily overflyers. The place the Op is describing should give multiple raptor sightings each visit unless there are measures in place to prevent such.

John
 
Just looking at recent records of visits in May I saw 4 Buzzards on one visit;3 Buzzards and 2 Sparrowhawk on another visit.
Another observer saw 4 Buzzards on another visit in May
These are the sort of numbers I would expect to see around here-so nothing out of the ordinary.
How many Sparrowhawk there are around here would be difficult to say.
I casually visit the area so seeing Sparrowhawks is a matter of pot luck.
They spend most of their time skulking away,hidden from view.

On this latest visit there were 2 Kestrel and 1 Buzzard.There were probably more Buzzards around but they were not up and hovering around yesterday.
You wouldn't expect to see a Red Kite although one was seen here last year.
This is Cumbria ,don't forget, where there is no shortage of habitats for Buzzards so they need not necessarily all flock to this area.

As for whether there is any persecution going on,I wouldn't know one way or the other.
Remember this is largely open fell land with just a few small pockets of heather,gorse, and a Local Wildlife Reserve which is a boggy wetland area.
It is not a large shooting estate being managed for big scale commercial shooting.
The main quarry will be pheasants.
There is no ongoing management of huge heather moorlands with full time paid Gamekeepers.
The Pheasant Shooters only visit once a year to refill the seed buckets then return home,60 miles away- just doing it in their spare time.


If people are going around shooting Buzzards and other birds of prey around here to protect the Pheasants then I would be most surprised;but like I say I haven't got a clue whether persecution goes on here.
 
pratincol said:
Just looking at recent records of visits in May I saw 4 Buzzards on one visit;3 Buzzards and 2 Sparrowhawk on another visit.
Another observer saw 4 Buzzards on another visit in May
These are the sort of numbers I would expect to see around here-so nothing out of the ordinary.
How many Sparrowhawk there are around here would be difficult to say.
I casually visit the area so seeing Sparrowhawks is a matter of pot luck.
They spend most of their time skulking away,hidden from view.

On this latest visit there were 2 Kestrel and 1 Buzzard.There were probably more Buzzards around but they were not up and hovering around yesterday.
You wouldn't expect to see a Red Kite although one was seen here last year.
This is Cumbria ,don't forget, where there is no shortage of habitats for Buzzards so they need not necessarily all flock to this area.

As for whether there is any persecution going on,I wouldn't know one way or the other.
Remember this is largely open fell land with just a few small pockets of heather,gorse, and a Local Wildlife Reserve which is a boggy wetland area.
It is not a large shooting estate being managed for big scale commercial shooting.
The main quarry will be pheasants.
There is no ongoing management of huge heather moorlands with full time paid Gamekeepers.
The Pheasant Shooters only visit once a year to refill the seed buckets then return home,60 miles away- just doing it in their spare time.


If people are going around shooting Buzzards and other birds of prey around here to protect the Pheasants then I would be most surprised;but like I say I haven't got a clue whether persecution goes on here.
Click to expand...

Well that sounds rather different I must say. Glad to hear it.

John
 
Andey Hurley maked the following comment "it is possible to protect nature without the shooting fraternity, these upland moors should be nature reserves with free access for all life forms."
That is perfectly true, although somewhat utopian in prospect and in the first place would need someone to have both the interest and finance in order to create such nature reserves with no shooting activities. If it wasn't the current land owner having a sudden change of heart and suddenly stopping shooting and instead, turning his land over to a nature reserve with free access to the public, would various conservation bodies or councils have the finances to buy and manage many of the moors. And the "manage" bit becomes the second important topic, "free access for all wildlife" suggests a favourite comment by the softer element of nature lovers whereby no pest controls should ever take place and despite allowing pests such as the crows and magpies to freely ravage an area, everything will balance out in the long run - quite ridiculous!
While it is right to condem the illegal persecution of raptors on these sites, in my mind it would be equally as bad to stand by on a nature reserve and watch some of the "all wildlife" remorsely killing and pretty much wiping out rarer and weaker species because they are common, dominant and unchecked.
So to summarise, unless these moors can be owned and run as nature reserves, and pest species legally managed in similar ways to those used by the shooting fraternity, then for the present the habitat is best used by the shooting fraternity, at least it is protected from development, etc.
 
They have nature reserves (Naurschutzgebiete, or NSGs) all over Germany, they are everywhere. All it takes is a couple of signs. The farmers on the reserves have to abide by certain rules, dogs have to be on the leash, (almost impossible to enforce though) and if there are too many of one species for the environment to hold, they are moved to another. The local hunting association are also given license to shoot geese ducks etc where overpopulation is a problem. They do it at first light and disappear before the bleeding hearts turn up to let their dogs run through the nesting sites. Most places are looked after by a "Friends of (insert area name)" type association and it works just fine. With modern agriculture, wildlife needs areas to retreat to. National Parks are the next step up, but these NSGs are very important in providing suitable habitat. Nearly every village has a Schutzen Verein (shooting club).
In Germany, a large amount of work is done by volunteers, not only in conservation, the Freiwillige Feuerwehr (volunteer fire brigade), and even the smallest village has amazing sports facilities, several football teams, a tennis club and often an athletics club. Most of the clubs have charity status and are run by volunteers. Its why they always reach the end stages of world cups and have won it on 3 occasions. It would have been a fourth if a goal that wasn't hadn't been awarded to england in 1966. (Stand back and watch the fireworks that follow);)
 
Last edited:
I have been following his thread with some interest, being of wildfowling and rough shooting stock, living in the south.
A continual theme seems to be that although the average shooter is a law abiding citizen, they close ranks around the law breakers. This is not the case in the circle of my friends, where the attitude is of disgust and the law breakers deserve all that they get, and often a good deal more.
To those on this forum who are saying that they never hear condemnation of wildlife crimes I would ask what they expect, a full page advert it the Daily Mirror?
Shooters could say that they do not hear conservationists condemning the antics of extremist animal rights groups. They are not banging this drum, as it is generally accepted in society, that condemnation of illegal acts is the norm for any decent person. It would seem that this does not apply to shooters in the minds of some
 
I think the problem is more the old school tie and the old rich protecting one another. It appears that the landed gentry, the lords and ladies, have one rule for them and another for the masses.
 
MAN OF SHEPPEY said:
Andey Hurley maked the following comment "it is possible to protect nature without the shooting fraternity, these upland moors should be nature reserves with free access for all life forms."
That is perfectly true, although somewhat utopian in prospect and in the first place would need someone to have both the interest and finance in order to create such nature reserves with no shooting activities. If it wasn't the current land owner having a sudden change of heart and suddenly stopping shooting and instead, turning his land over to a nature reserve with free access to the public, would various conservation bodies or councils have the finances to buy and manage many of the moors. And the "manage" bit becomes the second important topic, "free access for all wildlife" suggests a favourite comment by the softer element of nature lovers whereby no pest controls should ever take place and despite allowing pests such as the crows and magpies to freely ravage an area, everything will balance out in the long run - quite ridiculous!
While it is right to condem the illegal persecution of raptors on these sites, in my mind it would be equally as bad to stand by on a nature reserve and watch some of the "all wildlife" remorsely killing and pretty much wiping out rarer and weaker species because they are common, dominant and unchecked.
So to summarise, unless these moors can be owned and run as nature reserves, and pest species legally managed in similar ways to those used by the shooting fraternity, then for the present the habitat is best used by the shooting fraternity, at least it is protected from development, etc.
Click to expand...

To summarise, in a normal ecosystem with normal amounts of predators there is no need for control of corvids, as these are also subject to predation. I think you've been spending too much time around anti-science shooters. The doomsday scenario you paint is simply shooting propaganda. The only real pest species is Homo sapiens.

John
 
On the contary Farnborough John, I have spent the last 28 years as part of the management team of a National Nature Reserve, which I visit most days and before that helping out on an RSPB reserve. However, I do discuss with mainly wildfowling participants, various aspects of countryside management in order to get a more balanced and acceptable view of what is needed in the fast diminishing countryside. It is also clear now that even nature reserves are now accepting that employing similar pest controls to those of shooting estates is necessary to maintain balance, if only in the breeding season. In recent years I have watched Lapwing breeding pairs on the reserve where I am active, continuing to reduce in numbers or fail to fledge any young, and this is in great part due, despite our trapping activities, to the ever consistent numbers of foxes, crows and magpies. To suggest yet again, that leaving everything to balance out and that corvids have their own predators is quite frankly dreaming, certainly here in North Kent I haven't seen anything predating them yet, they keep on coming and less common wildlife suffers accordingly.
 
The countryside will always be out of kilter as long as there are no apex predators. Killing of birds of prey to protect grouse/pheasant/whatever shoots is driving it further out of balance. With the scaremongering about killer snakes etc in the media being believed by some factions, we are getting further away from a balanced situation. Politician need to start listening and take appropriate action, not listen and ignore what environmental scientists are saying, even if it is politically difficult to do so.
 
MAN OF SHEPPEY said:
On the contary Farnborough John, I have spent the last 28 years as part of the management team of a National Nature Reserve, which I visit most days and before that helping out on an RSPB reserve. However, I do discuss with mainly wildfowling participants, various aspects of countryside management in order to get a more balanced and acceptable view of what is needed in the fast diminishing countryside. It is also clear now that even nature reserves are now accepting that employing similar pest controls to those of shooting estates is necessary to maintain balance, if only in the breeding season. In recent years I have watched Lapwing breeding pairs on the reserve where I am active, continuing to reduce in numbers or fail to fledge any young, and this is in great part due, despite our trapping activities, to the ever consistent numbers of foxes, crows and magpies. To suggest yet again, that leaving everything to balance out and that corvids have their own predators is quite frankly dreaming, certainly here in North Kent I haven't seen anything predating them yet, they keep on coming and less common wildlife suffers accordingly.
Click to expand...

That's because you don't have normal numbers of both ground and avian predators. Your nest-robbing Polecats, Martens and Wildcats (all pre-Victorian country-wide species) are long since shot and trapped out by the game preservation gang, your countryside is deforested and doesn't support Goshawks.

The result as Andy Hurley says is conservation running like mad to fill that role by shooting and trapping instead of getting concertedly behind reintroduction and species protection: every man-hour paid for, that is undertaking corvid control, is a man-hour not involved in productive conservation.

In addition your prey-selection methods are not those that predators would apply. They carve out the young and the old and the weak and the sick whereas you chop what you can shoot. The result of that is not even good conservation in respect of the controlled species. Unless your current practice is only a transition phase through which you need to move until you can install a proper predation regime that is already included in your long-term strategy, your whole approach is futile.

John
 
As Andy points out, we've managed to eradicate the apex predators over most of the UK, that has opened the doors to second tier, and much more fecund, predators such as corvids. This leaves conservation organisations with two alternatives. Take the place of an apex predator or run the risk of rattling the cages of the more vociferous ( I was going to say "rabid" ;) ) sections of the field sports community by re-introduction schemes for those species of raptors / mustelids / felines that previously occurred. North Kent would be ideal for White-tailed Eagle, Hen, Marsh and Montagu's Harriers, Goshawk and Polecat. It wouldn't be an overnight 'fix' but, once populations of apex predators were in place, we would have a far more structured avifauna, and far less need for anthropogenic predator 'control'.
 
It seems that some people are advocating the Old Lady theory for maintaining the natural balance. You know the song where an old lady swallows a fly and then has to eat a whole load of stuff to deal with an escalating problem? Well it appears that we are currently casting our eyes around for a spider.

Nature has evolved a way of maintaining it's own balance, it's only when mankind interferes that things go wrong. When I began birding in the 70's the only raptor I could expect to see in Northants was a Kestrel. Other species were either recovering from the attentions of our Victorian forefathers or the ill effects of DDT. You had as much chance of seeing a Roc as a Red Kite! Now, thanks to the efforts of many I can see 5 or 6 species within 10 miles of my house. At the same time many of the common birds that I took for granted have disappeared and you could connect the two if you were looking to prove a point. That would be to overlook the loss of good habitat to intensive agriculture or industrial and residential development. Where good habitat remains bird populations remain high so if we are looking to point the finger of blame at anything it should be ourselves.

If we're looking to micro manage nature, papering over cracks that we created where will we stop? Will those species that we like survive at the expense of those we do not? Nature does not need our help, it needs the time and space to recover and a sympathetic approach from us. Leave nature to achieve its own balance, we should spend more time getting our own affairs in order. I believe that if we cannot resolve our problems then future versions of this forum will be 99% about feral pigeons and the other 1% derogatory comments aimed at the generations that had it all and then chose to throw it away.

James.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 10 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

Andrew Whitehouse
Most misidentified birds in your area
2 3 4
Replies
73
Views
6K
hookem2010
hookem2010
O
Marathon at Steyning
Replies
0
Views
285
Original PaulE
O
Maffong
Inaccessible bird species
11 12 13
Replies
259
Views
24K
Mysticete
Mysticete
A
Any personal observations concerning attracting indigo buntings to backyards? What are they drawn to?
Replies
11
Views
2K
Avon Avians
A
B
Conserving birds habitats
Replies
2
Views
411
KC Foggin
KC Foggin

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top