Telinga Mics-Which One ? (1 Viewer)

I am finally taking the plunge and getting a Telinga ( if Augur Films ever answer my emails ! ). I ideally want to use it with MiniDisc and a Flash recorder which means I need Balanced XLR (Marantz) and 3.5mm (MD) capability.

I was going to get the Pro5W twin science but this won't go into the Flash recorder ( except through the line in which I don't think is good ? ).

This leaves the Pro6 Twin Sci which has 48V Phantom XLR and you can get a Power Suppy to use with MD and 3.5mm. Sounds like the best bet but will cost £1100 !!!

Does anyone have any experience of these eg. could I use the Pro5W into the Marantz, either line-in, or by using a connector ?

I am still a MD fan but now realize that it is coming to an end and will phase out soon after Sony's new flagship model ( which will be £250-ish) - and is difficult to buy new models etc. Quite happy with my newer one though. Also on a negative, 3.5mm jack sockets are a bit "skittery".

I will also be using an ME67/K6 long-gun set-up too for more remote location work.

Cheers,

Linz

griffin said:

I was going to get the Pro5W twin science but this won't go into the Flash recorder ( except through the line in which I don't think is good ? ).

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Why not? You can connect an unbalanced source to a balanced input, you will need a 3.5mm line socket, two XLR plugs and four 63V 100uF capacitors. You want to stand off the 48V phantom power with a 63V 100uF capacitor in each line, you may just get that into the XLR plugs. Theoretically you don't strictly need to do that but having your Telinga handle ground floating at 48V above the ground of your recorder will probably make your eyes water at some point if you get a hold of ground on both.

from a purist POV you will get best results and immunity to interference by using the balanced handle

ermine said:

Why not? You can connect an unbalanced source to a balanced input, you will need a 3.5mm line socket, two XLR plugs and four 63V 100uF capacitors. You want to stand off the 48V phantom power with a 63V 100uF capacitor in each line, you may just get that into the XLR plugs. Theoretically you don't strictly need to do that but having your Telinga handle ground floating at 48V above the ground of your recorder will probably make your eyes water at some point if you get a hold of ground on both.

from a purist POV you will get best results and immunity to interference by using the balanced handle

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Thanks ermine.....

......but that just went right over my head. eg " handle ground floating at 48V " !!

Sort of stuff also on Yahoo Nature Recordists (though no-one helped on there -guess I was a wanabee).

I have no knowledge of making leads up, adding capicitors, etc. I just want find a simple plug and play solution ! Don't really want to build anything or modify with my lack of knowledge.

Same with guitars, I just play 'em.

Linz

griffin said:

I have no knowledge of making leads up, adding capicitors, etc. I just want find a simple plug and play solution ! Don't really want to build anything or modify with my lack of knowledge.

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the problem appears to be the Marantz has 48V phantom power presented on XLR sockets, and the cheaper PRO5W Telinga handle like mine has a 3.5mm stereo output plug. The 3.5mm stereo input on the marantz is at line level from what you say, which means you don't have enough gain. You could use an external preamp but that means another box, more batteries and general pain. You really don't want to go there if you are goign to drop the extra dosh on the Marantz!

You could do well to ask Marantz if the 48V can be turned off - on most kit it can. In that case you can try using something like this
http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_cae_adapterkabel_xlrminiklinke_prodinfo.html
plus a 3.5mm stereo back to back barrel connector available from maplin or your local audio store (as you have a 3.5mm plug on the end that you have to connect to the 3.5mm plug on yout Teligna handle). I would like to see the phantom power switched off at the Marantz otherwise your Telinga handle ground will be at +48V relative to the Marantz box.

That will sting slightly if you get a hold of the Telinga ground (at the power switch, f'rinstance) and the Marantz ground simultaneously. 48V is probably not unsafe for someone in good health Which is why I would personally construct the adaptor to stand off the 48V - this does not require a major degree of soldering skill, but if I didn't wish to do that I would be happy to wing it and take the odd 48V tingle... If however the Marantz allows you to remove the phantom power on the XLR input, the 48V tingle won't be an issue.

Obviously the more connectors you have in the signal path the more opportunities for crackly flakey connections, so you should perhaps consider scrapping your MD earlier rather than later and going for the PRO6 balanced handle which is a better match to your desired recorder, and will allow you to use long microphone cables at a future stage.

You pays your money and you takes your choice here, and going for the Telinga PRO5W handle that matches your MD when you will be upgrading to a Marantz system that really is designed to match the PRO6 may be a false economy. If you wish to use your MD as a backup to your PRO6 should the Marantz fail you can use the PRO6 Power Box. I have this situation with my MKH mics and originally got this nasty piece of kit to add 48V power, which the MD recorder doesn't supply. I still needed to construct the cable to take XLR female to 3.5mm but you can buy this for a tenner plus vat plus shipping

Alternatively you can look for a CF recorder which can handle a 3.5mm stereo mic input. Edirol's R1 for 300 quid would fit that bill, though I do not know about its sensitivity or noise performance. However, the Telinga mic output is at a very high level - I had to drop my Minidisc gain to low sensitivity for a nightingale yesterday so you are probably okay - you need to test first.

Thanks for that reply Ermine,

I think from what you say I'd be better with the Pro6 and buying the optional Telinga power box to allow 3.5mm into MD, which is what I'd resolved to do. I don't mind spending the dosh if it is going to do what I want and I really do prefer the option of XLR in the long run............however, I am really enjoying the sound quality of my NH900, and that is with a basic mic, so I guess I am wanting my cake and eating it ! Don't want to spend that kind of money and realize it won't do what I wanted.

However, that said, the Phantom Power can be turned off on the PMD660 as far as I know ?

Reckon it will be the Pro6 and at least I can use it with the MD as and when. I did consider Edirol and Nagra (ARES-M ) have a recorder that takes a XLR so might still change my mind there yet !

Many thanks again for your help and comments,

Lindsay

griffin said:

Thanks for that reply Ermine,

I think from what you say I'd be better with the Pro6 and buying the optional Telinga power box to allow 3.5mm into MD, which is what I'd resolved to do.

However, that said, the Phantom Power can be turned off on the PMD660 as far as I know ?

Reckon it will be the Pro6 and at least I can use it with the MD as and when. I did consider Edirol and Nagara have a recorder that takes a XLR so might still change my mind there yet !

Click to expand...

If you can turn the phantom power off on the Marantz them most of the issues go away with using the Pro5W, you can use the Thomann cable adapter + barrel. You wouldn't have to muck around with capacitors etc. A parabola usually isn't used unattended as you have to be there to aim it at the source, so you don't usually end up using long mic lines.

However, using the PRO6 handle matched to your recorder will mean you have much greater integrity to your connections, and it is one less battery to go flat on you in the field. When you add up the costs of getting yourself into the field for recording that bit of extra reliability is usually worth paying for to avoid trashing the results of a couple of expeditions. So unless the cost difference is really astronomical the Pro6 is probably the way to go. You'll be able to get away without the PSU for the MD unless a fault happens with the Marantz, and it is meant to be pretty well-constructed from what I hear.

Anything made by Nagra will be in a totally different class to the Edirol and indeed the Marantz. Both in peformance - the Nagra was reviewed to have an excellent mic preamp performance for wildlife sound recording. And of course, that difference in class will also apply to the price :C

ermine said:

If you can turn the phantom power off on the Marantz them most of the issues go away with using the Pro5W, you can use the Thomann cable adapter + barrel. You wouldn't have to muck around with capacitors etc. A parabola usually isn't used unattended as you have to be there to aim it at the source, so you don't usually end up using long mic lines.

However, using the PRO6 handle matched to your recorder will mean you have much greater integrity to your connections, and it is one less battery to go flat on you in the field. When you add up the costs of getting yourself into the field for recording that bit of extra reliability is usually worth paying for to avoid trashing the results of a couple of expeditions. So unless the cost difference is really astronomical the Pro6 is probably the way to go. You'll be able to get away without the PSU for the MD unless a fault happens with the Marantz, and it is meant to be pretty well-constructed from what I hear.

Anything made by Nagra will be in a totally different class to the Edirol and indeed the Marantz. Both in peformance - the Nagra was reviewed to have an excellent mic preamp performance for wildlife sound recording. And of course, that difference in class will also apply to the price :C

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Cheers,

Looks like the Pro6 then, but will do a bit of research on recorders - the Nagra I was looking at was £640 and could stretch to that just !

http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/nagra_ares-m.htm


Linz

griffin said:

Cheers,

Looks like the Pro6 then, but will do a bit of research on recorders - the Nagra I was looking at was £640 and could stretch to that just !

http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/nagra_ares-m.htm


Linz

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Blimey - I never looked at how much the Nagra CF recorders were because I always assumed they were stratospheric prices. Like at least the cost of a scope from one of the Big Three!

That Nagra is a better match for the cheaper Telinga Pro5 (the 3.5mm stereo plug handle like mine) than the Marantz. The socketry is correct out of the box without adapters, the preroll buffer is something I dearly wish I had for birdsong (though less useful on a parabola as you still have to aim the thing). It is 240 quid more expensive than the Marantz, but you presumably save some on the cheaper Telinga handle. Plus you get instant compatibility with your existing MD. You lose out on phantom power and balanced inputs, but you don't normally run a parabola or a highly directional shotgun mic unattended on long lines.

150g is also a heck of a lot lighter than 500g too!

So you reckon that could be the way to go then ?

It will only handle up to 1 GB before download is necessary but this would be 3 hours in mono, which should be more than enough for me even on location for a few days. However, I am now working more on songs and need longer bursts of up to 5 mins plus, so that can eat it up during the breeding season.

How robust do you find your 3.5mm socket on the Telinga Pro5 ?

I notice the Nagra will take an extension socket so I could even attach the ME67/K6 via this ( though I do have a fem.XLR to male 3.5mm connector already ).

Looks like I need to weigh up all the pros and cons. The Nagra looks like it is possibly too small - I tend to drop things like that ! However, if the sound quality is seriously better as you say then I would definitely think about it - I would save the diff. by not buying a Pro6 !

Linz

griffin said:

So you reckon that could be the way to go then ?

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If it's the way to go depends how much you save going with the cheaper Telinga handle to dent the extra hit you're taking on the recorder. And how much back-compatibility with your MD as backup is valued.

The 660 with Pro6 handle gives you the weight of a bag of sugar to haul into the field, four-hour recording life on one set of 4 batteries, better connectors, and some question mark on the noise performance which needs testing. Plus you need the adapter box to go with your MD, though you can probably do without that to start with.

The Nagra with Pro5 is lightweight, ten-hour recording life on one set of two batteries, pre-roll recording buffer, noise performance unknown and needs testing, and there is the battery in the Pro5 to potentially let you down, though you can always use a 9V PP9 to get round that. You have MD compatibility from the off.

I haven't managed to trash the 3.5mm jack on the Telinga yet, and it a fairly straightforward resoldering job if I do. It is a rightangle connector so less likely to knacker the socket on the recorder.

The one unanswered question with all of these sub-£1000 CF recorders is what the noise of the input stages is like. CF recorders of this level like the Marantz 660 and this Nagra are designed for professional interviewers, court recorders and the like, who are recording loud humans speaking in public at normal ranges of a couple of metres to 10m using standard low-cost mikes. Things like the Edirol R1 and R09 are aimed at the musician, again no shortage of sound level there.

You and I are after birds in a tree, and we consider a range of 10m to be relatively close. We will be dealing with low signal levels - lower than loud humans. We've helped by the fact that the Telinga mike in particular has a very high sensitivity, so you get more electrical signal out of it for a given sound in front than which the sort of mikes the interviewers and court recordists and musicians use. So if wildlife recordists can use the 660, I would expect the Nagra to be no noisier.

I'm being vague here as I have no personal experience of using CF recorders, and I haven't seen any reviews by wildife recordists using anything sub £1000 which worries me. The one positive report is Lachlustre, using a Marantz 660 with a sensitive ME 67 mic and a target species the loud and reasonably approachable chaffinch. His signal levels will be higher than mine, as a result of his target species and probably his target closeness.

I did initially consider the Edirol until I saw the results of Rob Danielson's tests on naturerecordists, which indicated some issues - on the Marantz PMD660 the input stages were slightly noisy for wildlife recording, and the Edirol had insufficient gain for wildlife recording - you wouldn't be able to lift the weak signals up enough to reach peak level before you ran out of range on the record level gain.

This is part of the reason I still use MD despite its revolting ergonomics (the other being I spent my budget on mics for this year - I expect CF recorders to get better and cheaper with time but mikes seem to slowly creep up in price over the years with no radical technology advances). I admit I am sorely tempted to investigate the Nagra for use with the Telinga, but I can't guarantee it has a low enough mic input noise level to not compromise the Telinga. I would like to be able to test it in the field or get a decent answer to two questions -

what is the minimum microphone signal level needed to get a full-scale recording (for my Minidisc this is 400uV or -66dBu)

and what is the corresponding noise level (I measured this at at about 1.2uV or -116dBu)

I wouldn't expect the Nagra to be worse than the PMD660, and I really would hope it to be better than MD, though that is purely gong on the company's previous record of professional products which is no way to really assess equipment. I know that the Marantz 660 is no good to me, even though it offers phantom power, as according to Rob's tests it would compromise the noise performance of my MKH30/40 microphones. I would have to use an outboard preamplifier to get round that, and then I might as well stick with MD.

If you can get the Nagra on a trial basis you can test this easily. Take your mic out somewhere very quiet on a day when the wind is down. Set the replay gain set fairly high - about 3/4. Adjust record gain on the recorder so you can hear the ambient noise through headphones - it should be somewhere near flat out. Turn the mic off (noting you'll get a pretty big thump in the phones!). The noise level should noticeably drop. If it doesn't then you need a better recorder or an external preamplifier (plus cables, battery, weight - it's something you want to avoid).

On MD using the Telinga with Pro5 that condition is easily satisfied, and using the Sennheaiser MKH30/40 with outboard phantom power unit that is just satisifed. I'd hate to spring for a mid-range CF recorder and find that it isn't. So I do feel for your dilemma. If the noise question were resolved, for me the obvious choice would be the Nagra - I already have the Pro5 handle to match.

Looks like I have a lot of serious thinking to do before taking the plunge !

I should have the ME67 very soon so can keep going with MD in the short term, but I do want to get the parabola sorted in next couple of weeks. I don't think I can get the Nagra on a trial basis so would really be buying that "blind" ("deaf"! ). Shame we don't know of anyone else using it for song.

I am tempted by the Nagra and it would allow me to use the Telinga Pro5 with the MD. If the Nagra really is better in pre-amp quality than the 660 then that is probably the way I would go.

Magnus Robb did some good Crossbill recordings with a Pro5 ( and Pro4 PIP ) and Sony TCD-D100 and Sony TCD-D100 Pro II, which were DAT machines, between 1997-2000. Surely all this new stuff is at least on par with these or better ?

Cheers,

Linz

A poster on Nature Recordists Forum has suggested :

MZ-RH1
Edirol R-09
Marantz PMD671
Tascam HD-P2

He was not impressed by the Nagra listed previously.

The new MD really improves on the design and facility for us recordists, but...

Not sure about recording time on one battery charge and there is no external battery connector/cradle ....if it has a battery I guess a spare can be bought and charged though needs to be connected to a USB/PC !

I don't know what it is but I don't like the look of the Edirol though need to investigate further.

If I was going for either of the last two would need to review my list - the Marantz esp. is full of "hidden" extras needed - eg. battery at £80 extra, decent case at £170 (don't think I will be buying that ).

Tempted by the Tascam, which is sub £800. Could use Pro5W with that too I think.

This has become far more complex than I ever envisaged !

Linz

griffin said:

Surely all this new stuff is at least on par with these or better ?

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It's not so much a question of engineering as of cost. Analogue electronics is reasonably mature, and it is this part that determines the noise performance of the front end. These low-cost CF recorders are aimed at a typical user dealing with louder sounds, who value a lower cost over better performance with low sound levels, which they don't record.

I don't really know the answer here - I saw the naturerecordists post to your question which does seem to indicate the Nagra is not up to their usual standards, and came across another review which indicated the noise performance is not up to the usual legendary standard as, say, this nagra cf recorder

If I knew the right answer I'd be saving up for one - the ares P2 is £1200 and does pretty much everything I would want and seems to be the minimum to get great noise performance and phantom powering. Hopefully it iwll be cheaper as time goes on. There appears to be a great big hole in the market for the wildlife recordist. HiMD addresses the impoverished recordist who runs 3.5mm non-hantom power mikes for about < £250. After that, the mid-range CF recorders offer the musician and radio journalist good loud sound level perfromance including phantom power by the wildlife recordist is out of luck until he spends £1200 +. If he uses the midrange stuff he will be short of gain and short of decent signal to noise level unless he drags around an outboard preamplifier.

Which is why I'm stuck with MD for now - £1200 is just too much for me at the moment just for extra ease of use. The new Sony HiMD would get rid of most of the ergonomic issues I have with MD, allow me to recover my collection of concert bootlegs off the old type of MD digitally and bring back one fantastic feature of the old MD system - date-time stamping.

The MD power issue may not be so bad. Since the USB connector is used for the external AC adapter which presumably doesn't have a computer in it, it will be easy enough to power and charge the unit from an external battery box. I'm sort of stuck in that no-man's land too - do I go for the Sony or just hang on and slowly save the £1200. If the Sony has preroll buffer it might swing it.

The Tascam looks interesting, though big and heavy! I see from the specs that depressingly its mic input is 6dB less sensitive than my HiMD recorder, and the studious lack of noise specs makes me wonder about the low signal level performance of this...

I never thought spending so much money would be so hard !

At the mo I am swaying to Telinga Pro6 into either Tascam HD-P2 or Marantz 671. How do you think that would fare ?

They are bigger, badder, heavier but I too can't justify £1200 on a recorder either. I feel if I get the Pro6 ( a considerable investment in its own right ), then I can always switch to a better flash recorder if and when it comes along.

With that in mind, I might even still get the Pro6 and PMD660, as this would still allow me to buy the more portable Me67 rig also, and this can work with my existing MD (with the telinga power supply ). Bach to square one !

Linz

griffin said:

I never thought spending so much money would be so hard !

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Yeah, bummer, innit The trouble is we are both trying to avoid spending the money to join the men's league here. And I remember the outcome of this with scopes. For me it was basically either stick with my scummy £70 piccolo or go all the way Zeiss/Leica/Swaro. The midrange held no attraction for me as I'd always be pushing things to the limit. It's easier to accept a £70 scope falls short than that a £500 one does, well, for me anyway.

With sound this difficulty with the mid price range is even worse, as the Sony HiMD is actually a pretty good performer for wildlife sound recording even with top-notch mikes. At least you know you'll get better results from a £500 midrange scope than a £70 piccolo, but I am getting a horrible feeling that this may not apply with a mid-range CF recorder with quiet sounds, though it will be a darn sight easier to use!

Tascam HD-P2 or Marantz 671. How do you think that would fare ?

Click to expand...

PMD671

Sensitivity (MIC): 1.2 mVrms/3 kohms {equiv to -56dBu}

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from here


HD-P2

input level –60 dBu (Trim max) to –13.8 dBu (Trim min) {translates to 0.775mVrms min level}

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from here



PMD660

sensitivity: 1.2 mV rms /6.5k {equiv to -56dBu}

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from here

Sony MZ-NH700

sensitivity for 0dBFS = -66dBu {translates to 0.4mV rms}

from here


You're gonna be short of gain at the bottom end compared to HiMD. Put it like this, if I needed to wick everything flat out to 30 at Hi-sens on my NH-700, then if I had a HD-P2 I would only be able to raise the gain to the level corresponding to 27. And if I had either of the Marantzes I would only be able to raise the gain to the level the Sony achieves at 24. And I can certainly tell you from experience that that would be short.

I've been in enough environments down south here where I've needed to push the Telinga/Sony all the way to get a halfway decently modulated recording. I've just been up your neck of the woods the last couple of weeks and though the wind drove me nuts when it did pack it in I was running flat out a lot of the time, particularly with the MKH30/40 for some soundscapes/ambient. The background noise in Scotland is just so much lower than down here because you have so much more space, so many fewer people and no planeloads of RyanJet chavs flying to cheap Euro city breaks every 15 minutes overhead. Mind you, RAF Lossiemouth certainly maxed the record level at times!

I've just done this level test, using the Telinga, to get some science in this subject and to know for myself how much of an issue this is. I was first warmed up to this issue by Rob Danielson of naturerecordists, but now I have the specs of these recorders I have been able to test whether that really would be an issue. And in my view I'm not spinning you a yarn - the Marantz would lack grunt with the Telinga. You're gonna have to tell those Crossbills to turn the wick up a bit or get closer to them.

Listen for yourself on http://www.suffolkbirds.co.uk/article/53/budget-cf-recorders-lets-get-technical

I tested these different gain levels just now - a noisy urban environment with kids playing footy, sparrows 2 metres away and a 13mph wind. If I had either of the Marantz I'd just about get those sparrows fully modulated running the mic open, which is about the sensitivity you'd get from the ME66. Sure, the Me66 wouldn't pick up so much of the kids footy, but it gives you no gain.
Needing sparrows at 6ft to achieve a fully modulated recording isn't a recipe for joy with crossbills IMO. You need to get into something more approachable like chaffinches or blackbirds.

The Telinga parabola gives you an extra 10dB of almost noiseless gain, so you would achieve with the parabola the sensiitivity I got with the Sony on an open mic. But I feel you'll be seriously short with the Marantz/ME67, unless you're prepared to hawk around an outboard preamp. You may be a little bit short with the HD-P2. I don't know how loud crossbills are, but the indications are you don't have loads of volume to throw away.

That new Sony HiMD is starting to look more attractive every day

Certainly a big difference when done hypothetically in a simulation like that ! Very helpful to hear the relative volumes.

I could possibly live with a equiv. of 27 on the NH900 - I usually run my ECM-957 at 28, though on the tele setting.

I have also checked here:

http://www.avisoft.com/tutorial_mic_recorder.htm

He also merits some of the recorders we have be throwing about.....

Is no-one really using a stock PMD671 or Tascam et al to record bird sounds -I find that very hard to believe ? I know there ar MOD available by Oade Brothers but, well that reminds me of all these guitarists changing the chip in their Ibanez Tubescreamer pedals to the retro/vintage chip in order to sound like Stevie Ray Vaughan ! Great, except SRV preferred the newer, supposedly inferior chip !

Another recorder I like look of, but is a real Mutha is the Fostex Fr-2. Boasts better pre-amp headroom, but whether this is enough for our needs ?


http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/fostex_fr2.htm


My originally intention was to have the best of both worlds eg. still use MD, but have a set-up that will cope or convert to XLR Balanced Recorders.
Based on this it is probably still prudent to get the Telinga Pro6, with power adapter (its not BIG is it ? ) and the ME67/K6. I can use these with my MD and wait and see if a better recorder comes along. If I buy a Pro5 I am stuck in 3.5mm MD land for at least another 3 years.......


As well as pre-amp gain, MD does give some other benefits which would be, weight (portability), battery life, cheap. However, I really don't like using disc media these days and 3.5mm jacks are not famous for being robust - I have a few crackly recordings.


I will also speak to Augur who deal with Telinga and see what they say, as they record film and audio professionally and must know something about compatible recoreders. They are on location just now but will chase them up at end of month.

Linz

OOI what is the price including VAT of a Nagra ARES PII, your dream recorder ? ! Can't find one online anywhere.

Could get that (maybe!) and a Pro6. Would also need a Din-XLR converter lead as I am not soldering a 12 PIN plug ! No ME67 though........

Linz

griffin said:

OOI what is the price including VAT of a Nagra ARES PII, your dream recorder ? ! Can't find one online anywhere.

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If you need to ask how much it is you can't afford it. You're travelling on a dangerous track here :'D

The WSRS article listed it at about £1200 ex VAT, and this one lists it at Euros 1800

At least there is one decent report of this being used for wildlife sound recording.

According to the Avisoft guys the noise floor of the Marantz PMD 671 at 65 dB A weighted is adequately below the noise floor of the mics. It is 10dB less sensitive than my MD, which I measured gave 48dBFS (A weighted), so at their minimum signal level my MD S/N would be 58dB (A weighted), and the Marantz would in fact be significantly less noisy than my MD if they are right. in theory the low gain would then not be an issue, as you can jack that up post-transfer - you would not lose resolution as the noise floor is defined by the preamp. However, it would make monitoring a pain as you won't be able to hear through the recorder at a decent level, which is kind of important on a dish!

What makes me suspect this calculation is that they have shown the 96dB dynamic range of the 16 bit recording on the same scale, which isn't comparing like for like as it isn't A weighted to account for the ear's relative insensitivity at low and high frequencies. It may be that this comes out the same A weighted, but that isn't always the case, usually the A weighted value looks better.

And what generally gives me the willies with the CF mid-range and the Marantz ones in particular is this snarl on naturerecordists I feel for that guy!

Now the Fostex is a possibility, as they do have the courage to cite a signal-to-noise ratio (Mic input -60dBu): 87dB (typical) which is a heck of a lot better than both the mics and my HiMD which would be 54dB. What makes me suspicious about that value is that it's too damn good - it implies an input noise of -60dBu (ref level) - 87 = -147dBu. And since the best signal to noise ratio possible is about -136dBu I feel that Fostex is telling me porkies or http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/fostex_fr2.htm copied it wrong. either way I'd want to test it... Or perhaps not - humping 1.5kg plus the weight of EIGHT AA batteries into the field isn't the way I want to go. You have to suffer for your art/science/hobby, but not that much!

I really don't like using disc media these days

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Curious - is that from a mechanical noise POV or some other reason? I have a couple of recordings that were spoiled by the chuntering of the MD running but on open mic recordings I usually find I am more noisy that the MD and have to get a few feet away.

I certainly don't retain my recordings on MD - I only have three Hi-MD discs and out the recordings to the computer ASAP. The price of MDs relative to CF cards GB for GB is a lot better though, so if I went to a remote location that would certainly be a serious issue.

Yeah, not spending £1400 on a recorder.

Total budget is £2.5K and I need licence of Raven FULL version also.

Can get the Tascam on loan so will buy the Pro6 at end of month and try it out. Still not rulling out a PMD671.

Fostex, I feel would be the best quality ( my exp. of theirs, and Tascams, 4 track recorders is very positive, though somewhat irrelevant ! ), though it is VERY heavy. Maybe gives the most pro-features, but battery life is next to useless for me. Could use it for the locations that I have near 'the car park'. Use the MD and K6 option for the hikes up the glens ( which was always my intention ).

Linz

griffin said:

Yeah, not spending £1400 on a recorder.

Total budget is £2.5K and I need licence of Raven FULL version also.

Can get the Tascam on loan so will buy the Pro6 at end of month and try it out. Still not rulling out a PMD671.

Fostex, I feel would be the best quality ( my exp. of theirs, and Tascams, 4 track recorders is very positive, though somewhat irrelevant ! ), though it is VERY heavy. Maybe gives the most pro-features, but battery life is next to useless for me. Could use it for the locations that I have near 'the car park'. Use the MD and K6 option for the hikes up the glens ( which was always my intention ).

Linz

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Just to conclude this thread I bought a Fostex FR2 about a month ago and it is fantastic. It was highly recommended by Magnus Robb, an excellent professional sound recordist who uses it to produce far better recordings than I will probably need ! There are great deals on the internet via www.mercury-av.com

There is a cheaper and smaller version coming out in August (FR2-LE) , but to be honest I have no regrets and would still choose the FR2 over it.

The FR2 is much smaller than it looks in photos and documentation, though it is way bigger than my Mz900 !

Battery life is a bugg:er but I have (eventually) managed to solve this with Lithium rechargeables that are £48 and last 3.5 hours. If anyone is interested PM and I will give the details.