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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 10:19   #201
Nutcracker
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Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
Some mtDNA-based stuff attached.

...

Green is Old World, ochre is New World.
Wow! Thanks!

So best fit is four crossbill species: L. curvirostra (Common Xb) & L. bifasciata (Two-barred Xb) in Old World, and L. minor (Red Xb; Brehm 1846, oldest New World plain-winged Xb name) & L. leucoptera (White-winged Xb) in New World

Any plans to get this published formally? Looks worthwhile to me.
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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 11:32   #202
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Any plans to get this published formally? Looks worthwhile to me.

Nice! Would be interesting to add som of the East Asian taxa like luzoniensis and meridionalis!
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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 11:56   #203
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Nice! Would be interesting to add som of the East Asian taxa like luzoniensis and meridionalis!
There is a luzoniensis in Groth's data set.
I would also vastly prefer more pytyopsittacus from the normal range of the form. (I'm not comfortable with Scottish birds.)
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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 12:00   #204
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There is a luzoniensis in Groth's data set.
I would also vastly prefer more pytyopsittacus from the normal range of the form. (I'm not comfortable with Scottish birds.)
Right, missed that one!

And yes, pytyopsittacus from e.g. Scandinavia would be good.
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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 12:39   #205
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Right, missed that one!

And yes, pytyopsittacus from e.g. Scandinavia would be good.
And also more sampling from the New World among the Red Crossbills - nearly nothing from the east (Newfoundland would be of interest), Alaska, or Mexico, and more New World samples overall would help clear up the "Colorado-centric" sections.

To answer Laurent and Nutcracker's question, for whatever its worth - I was both right and wrong in my intended answer. I did misinterpret the figure.

To answer Markus's question, they do indeed occur in Twin Falls county, if you believe the eBird data:

http://ebird.org/ebird/map/redcro9?n...=1900&eyr=2017
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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 18:20   #206
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To answer Markus's question, they do indeed occur in Twin Falls county, if you believe the eBird data:

http://ebird.org/ebird/map/redcro9?n...=1900&eyr=2017
And perhaps worth looking for too in that range of hills just over the Utah border? Or do squirrels occur there? Lodgepole Pine does occur there, so the habitat is there, if squirrel-free.
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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 20:18   #207
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Wow! Thanks!

So best fit is four crossbill species: L. curvirostra (Common Xb) & L. bifasciata (Two-barred Xb) in Old World, and L. minor (Red Xb; Brehm 1846, oldest New World plain-winged Xb name) & L. leucoptera (White-winged Xb) in New World

Any plans to get this published formally? Looks worthwhile to me.
Yes, very fine work. It all seems fairly logical - agree that Scandinavian Parrot would be helpful - perhaps that will reveal a surprise. Interesting to see no obvious separation of North African, Balearic or Luzon birds. And 'Scottish Crossbill' seems comprehensively buried by this, surely.

cheers, alan
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Old Wednesday 19th July 2017, 21:04   #208
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And also to get the huge-billed, deep purple-pink crossbill I saw in the Pirin Mts in Bulgaria a few years ago . . . looked very 'Parroty' and with a Parrot-like call, too
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Old Thursday 20th July 2017, 11:13   #209
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And perhaps worth looking for too in that range of hills just over the Utah border? Or do squirrels occur there? Lodgepole Pine does occur there, so the habitat is there, if squirrel-free.
I believe this habitat is all contiguous and squirrel free
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Old Thursday 20th July 2017, 13:44   #210
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It seems that Cassia Crossbill is being drowned at birth. One of the shortest lived 'species' on record?

Why was this information not taken into consideration (or was it, and there are other factors that were taken into account) before it's recent elevation to speicesdom?

And is it likely that IOC will take Laurent's presentation on board?
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Old Thursday 20th July 2017, 14:16   #211
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It seems that Cassia Crossbill is being drowned at birth. One of the shortest lived 'species' on record?

Why was this information not taken into consideration (or was it, and there are other factors that were taken into account) before it's recent elevation to speicesdom?

And is it likely that IOC will take Laurent's presentation on board?
There is good stuff in the pipeline.
We'll wait :)
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Old Thursday 20th July 2017, 15:07   #212
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Again....as I have already stated...AOU/AOS does not used the phylogenetic species concept. Which if you are arguing on the basis of the tree Laurent posted, is the species concept you are using.

Their is fairly solid evidence, as PRESENTED IN THE PROPOSAL, that Cassia Crossbill acts as a good biological species where sympatric with other crossbills. That it's embedded within Red Crossbill is irrelevant under the BSC.
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Old Thursday 20th July 2017, 19:49   #213
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Maybe a small detail, but I'm still curious to the statement that it's endemic to Cassia County, Idaho. Is there anyone familier with the South Hills range (I'm not) that can bring clarity to this? Is the forest vegetation different on the Cassia County side of the range compared to the Twin Falls County side of the range? Or is it actually endemic to Cassia AND Twin Falls counties?
Our (AOS NACC) Notes for the crossbill read:
Although the English name South Hills Crossbill was used in the description, Cassia Crossbill more accurately describes the distribution of this species, which is endemic to Cassia County, Idaho, and is more succinct and less confusing (C. W. Benkman, in litt.)
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Old Friday 21st July 2017, 05:47   #214
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Our (AOS NACC) Notes for the crossbill read:
Although the English name South Hills Crossbill was used in the description, Cassia Crossbill more accurately describes the distribution of this species, which is endemic to Cassia County, Idaho, and is more succinct and less confusing (C. W. Benkman, in litt.)
Yes, that statment made me curious since South Hills is divided into two counties, and if you can trust the e-bird data it does seem like it's not endemic to Cassia County, but occurs at least also in Twin Falls County. But any evidence of the opposite would be interesting to see.
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