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Norfolk birding (15 Viewers)

Mark Batten said:
Bird hides should blend info the landscape. The Daukes complex at Cley are just superb. The person responsible should get an award. The hide at RSPB Rainham is also excellent. As for the hide you refer to above it best reminds me of a 1960's shopping complex on a council estate! . I do think it would be better suited to accomodating Greggs, a kebab shop and a hairdressing salon rather than birders! Sorry no awards;) Good to know I am not alone on my thoughts on probably one the most expensive bird hides ever built;)
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I like your comparison. :-O It is more trading estate than nature reserve.

You are definitley not alone in disliking it. I have had several conversations with various birders who have nothing good to say about it.

I think the RSPB and Wildlife Trusts are loosing their way somewhat. Behaving like big business and going for profit instead of being guardians of the countryside. I think the Titchwell hide despoils the countryside, which I consider to be the absolute opposite to what the RSPB should be doing. I go to their reserves to get away from big, hard edged man made structures, not to sit in them.

I can't see that all that concrete, steel and glass is low carbon either. It has a lot of embedded energy used in its creation and transportation. The same goes for NWTs Cley visitor centre despite its "green credentials" of having a green roof, wind turbine and rainwater harvesting.
 
Boogieshrew said:
I like your comparison. :-O It is more trading estate than nature reserve.

You are definitley not alone in disliking it. I have had several conversations with various birders who have nothing good to say about it.

I think the RSPB and Wildlife Trusts are loosing their way somewhat. Behaving like big business and going for profit instead of being guardians of the countryside. I think the Titchwell hide despoils the countryside, which I consider to be the absolute opposite to what the RSPB should be doing. I go to their reserves to get away from big, hard edged man made structures, not to sit in them.

I can't see that all that concrete, steel and glass is low carbon either. It has a lot of embedded energy used in its creation and transportation. The same goes for NWTs Cley visitor centre despite its "green credentials" of having a green roof, wind turbine and rainwater harvesting.
Click to expand...

Whilst I share your dislike of the new Parinder hide at Titchwell (does it still go by that name?) lets not forget that the environment it overlooks is equally man-made.
 
Correct and also not to forget that the hide isn't just for the purist birder but mainly for novice birders and Joe public alike.

Whatever we think of those hides doesn't make much bearing on the fact that I have been in there and heard many visitors saying how brilliant they are and novice birders and Joe Public numbers far outweigh the number of purist birders that visit.

I think we are sometimes guilty of being selfish and protective of things that we think should be just for us instead of looking at the bigger picture.

If those hides get more visitors in, and because of that they encouraage more people into birdwatching, then it can't be a bad thing can it?

John

Phil Andrews said:
Whilst I share your dislike of the new Parinder hide at Titchwell (does it still go by that name?) lets not forget that the environment it overlooks is equally man-made.
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I think the hide at Titchwell is great , the birds don't mind it, as many get very close to it. Isn't it how the birds respond that counts. I remember Titchwell when it was a salt marsh, so as Phil A say's is all man made. Move on people without the RSPB we would have nothing, obviously not too many birds about for you to see at the moment8-P.
 
upstarts1979 said:
I think the hide at Titchwell is great , the birds don't mind it, as many get very close to it. Isn't it how the birds respond that counts. I remember Titchwell when it was a salt marsh, so as Phil A say's is all man made. Move on people without the RSPB we would have nothing, obviously not too many birds about for you to see at the moment8-P.
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Imagine that hide at Upton Warren, eh JB |:d|
 
These little Shelducks (Shelducklings?) were wandering about in the overflow car park at Strumpshaw this afternoon, peeping continuously. There was no sign of the parents but, hopefully, they weren't far away. Delightful little things.

Ron
 

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I understand that people are upset about the failure of this nest, but honestly, nest predation is natural and may have had nothing to do with human disturbance. Lets not forget this is an edge of range species breeding in a non-natural habitat, which if it weren't for the human disturbance of farming, wouldn't be there anyway.

As for suppression, why should a select few with mates in the right places have anymore right to view/disturb the birds than any other birder. The loss of one nest is nothing compared to the killing of a single breeding adult, such as Harriers shot by princes on shooting estates... I believe if birders new and old can enjoy birds like these then there will be more voices to put pressure on the government to deal with the real issues surrounding birds of prey in this country...
 
Derek Pickering said:
Personally, I'd prefer that my subscription went towards overseeing endangered species breeding sites rather than funding not-fit-for-purpose hides in flagship reserves
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Hi Derek, every time I open and read my copy of Birds magazine, I am astounded at all the fantastic examples of what the RSPB does with our subscriptions to protect endangered birds, wildlife and habitats in this country and around the world. For non-members (shame on you!) who don't get the benefit of Birds magazine, then try looking here to get an overview of what the RSPB actually does...

Boogieshrew said:
I like your comparison. :-O It is more trading estate than nature reserve.
Click to expand...

Hi Boggieshrew, Not like any trading estate I know or have worked on!! Breeding bittern, bearded tit, marsh harrier, avocet, Cetti's warbler. Dozens of pairs of reed and sedge warblers. Harrier roost in winter, fantastic place for waders during autumn migration, wildfowl in winter etc etc but like your trading estate I can also get a bacon buttie and a cup of tea there! ;)

Boogieshrew said:
I think the Titchwell hide despoils the countryside, which I consider to be the absolute opposite to what the RSPB should be doing. I go to their reserves to get away from big, hard edged man made structures, not to sit in them.
Click to expand...

As to the hide, well it might not be your cup of tea, but sites like Titchwell attract tens of thousands of non-birders a year, often for their first look at UK nature. Lots of these folk want comfort, not a drafty, leaky shed and splinters in their backsides! Thanks to the hide, they can in comfort, get up close and personal to their first ever avocet and in so doing may become converts to some kind of interest in conservation. I know for a fact that the reserve recruits many hundred of members every year and also raises huge sums of money through it's retail operation....all of which are ploughed straight back into conservation.

Like it or not Titchwell is one of the key tools in the RSPB's armoury for attracting new people and income and without the Titchwell's of the world the RSPB could not be involved in the breadth of conservation work it is!
 
Dave Hawkins said:
Hi Derek, every time I open and read my copy of Birds magazine, I am astounded at all the fantastic examples of what the RSPB does with our subscriptions to protect endangered birds, wildlife and habitats in this country and around the world. For non-members (shame on you!) who don't get the benefit of Birds magazine, then try looking here to get an overview of what the RSPB actually does...



Hi Boggieshrew, Not like any trading estate I know or have worked on!! Breeding bittern, bearded tit, marsh harrier, avocet, Cetti's warbler. Dozens of pairs of reed and sedge warblers. Harrier roost in winter, fantastic place for waders during autumn migration, wildfowl in winter etc etc but like your trading estate I can also get a bacon buttie and a cup of tea there! ;)



As to the hide, well it might not be your cup of tea, but sites like Titchwell attract tens of thousands of non-birders a year, often for their first look at UK nature. Lots of these folk want comfort, not a drafty, leaky shed and splinters in their backsides! Thanks to the hide, they can in comfort, get up close and personal to their first ever avocet and in so doing may become converts to some kind of interest in conservation. I know for a fact that the reserve recruits many hundred of members every year and also raises huge sums of money through it's retail operation....all of which are ploughed straight back into conservation.

Like it or not Titchwell is one of the key tools in the RSPB's armoury for attracting new people and income and without the Titchwell's of the world the RSPB could not be involved in the breadth of conservation work it is!
Click to expand...


Hear, hear ! ! !
 
Montagu's harriers in north Norfolk

Jim Scott, who manages the harrier protection scheme in north Norfolk, has asked me to post the following response to the current situation.

The RSPB has been involved in monitoring and nest protection of Montagu's harriers for over 30 years in The Wash and north Norfolk area. As earlier posts have stated, public viewing schemes have been operated in some years when birds have nested in a suitable location, and crucially, the landowner has agreed to the running of a viewing scheme. For the past few years, though not every year, birds have nested in north Norfolk. If birds have nested in suitable locations to run a viewing scheme then RSPB has contacted the relevant landowner to discuss the possibility with them. To date, only one landowner has been willing to go ahead with a viewing scheme, and unfortunately, the male disappeared before the scheme commenced, with the subsequent failure of the nest. The RSPB will continue to monitor and protect nesting Montagu's harriers, the majority of which are successful in rearing young, and look for opportunities to operate public viewing schemes, in suitable locations where landowners give permission. Needless to say, the interests of the birds are paramount. A public viewing scheme also has the added benefit of taking pressure off other nest sites.

With regard to the nesting attempt that has recently failed. Almost certainly failure has been due to predation of the eggs, rather than disturbance caused by humans. Closure of a public footpath is a complicated process and was not thought to be necessary in this instance, certainly not as a first resort. Once the birds had started to nest a sign was erected at a safe distance from the nest asking birdwatchers/photographers to watch from that location. The site was regularly wardened and to RSPB's knowledge birders/photographers did not continue down the public footpath after the erection of the sign.

Jim Scott
Sites Manager, North West Norfolk reserves
 
Thanks for taking the time to get a response Paul, very much appericiated.
Dave_A, I fear you may have misundertood my previous post. I personally believe that no information should be released with regard to rare breeders, and that those who either a) find a bird in suitable habitat during the season, or b) find evidence of nesting should suppress the info, and only let the appropriate authorities know so that protection can be given. County recorders are not always given the full details with regard to breeding species, but this is for the protection of the bird. In some cases, the fewer people know the better.
Yes this is a species living in a modified landscape and on the fringe of it's natural range, but that doesn't make the loss any easier. These species make up the upper trophic layers of our ecosystems, and in such a heavily degraded ecosystem such as those found in the UK, the loss of any apex predator is something to be mourned.
 
Good to see a wide range of opinions being put forward. The RSPB have done excellent work particular in the buying up of land and developing nature reserves. An area where where they have fallen short is that of raptor protection, with the best example being the case of the Hen Harrier which no longer breeds in England. As for the titchwell hide, my thoughts have always been that such structures should blend in and if possible enhance the enviroment in which they are placed. The titchwell structure achieves neither of these.
 
Dave Hawkins said:
Hi Derek, every time I open and read my copy of Birds magazine, I am astounded at all the fantastic examples of what the RSPB does with our subscriptions to protect endangered birds, wildlife and habitats in this country and around the world. For non-members (shame on you!) who don't get the benefit of Birds magazine, then try looking here to get an overview of what the RSPB actually does...



Hi Boggieshrew, Not like any trading estate I know or have worked on!! Breeding bittern, bearded tit, marsh harrier, avocet, Cetti's warbler. Dozens of pairs of reed and sedge warblers. Harrier roost in winter, fantastic place for waders during autumn migration, wildfowl in winter etc etc but like your trading estate I can also get a bacon buttie and a cup of tea there! ;)



As to the hide, well it might not be your cup of tea, but sites like Titchwell attract tens of thousands of non-birders a year, often for their first look at UK nature. Lots of these folk want comfort, not a drafty, leaky shed and splinters in their backsides! Thanks to the hide, they can in comfort, get up close and personal to their first ever avocet and in so doing may become converts to some kind of interest in conservation. I know for a fact that the reserve recruits many hundred of members every year and also raises huge sums of money through it's retail operation....all of which are ploughed straight back into conservation.

Like it or not Titchwell is one of the key tools in the RSPB's armoury for attracting new people and income and without the Titchwell's of the world the RSPB could not be involved in the breadth of conservation work it is!
Click to expand...

Well said Dave. Some people needed the bigger picture.

Jim.
 
Hen Harrier

11:00 am Today at West Somerton a male Hen Harrier flew over and went NW towards Horsey.

I agree with much of what is said about poor mega hides. Its a pity that small amounts of money cannot be spent on basic maintenance and improvement first.
As a person who does not walk too well, it would be nice for the path to Bishops hide (Cley) to be completed, also likewise with the path to Fen hide (Strumpshaw).
 
Paul Eele said:
Jim Scott, who manages the harrier protection scheme in north Norfolk, has asked me to post the following response to the current situation.

The RSPB has been involved in monitoring and nest protection of Montagu's harriers for over 30 years in The Wash and north Norfolk area. As earlier posts have stated, public viewing schemes have been operated in some years when birds have nested in a suitable location, and crucially, the landowner has agreed to the running of a viewing scheme. For the past few years, though not every year, birds have nested in north Norfolk. If birds have nested in suitable locations to run a viewing scheme then RSPB has contacted the relevant landowner to discuss the possibility with them. To date, only one landowner has been willing to go ahead with a viewing scheme, and unfortunately, the male disappeared before the scheme commenced, with the subsequent failure of the nest. The RSPB will continue to monitor and protect nesting Montagu's harriers, the majority of which are successful in rearing young, and look for opportunities to operate public viewing schemes, in suitable locations where landowners give permission. Needless to say, the interests of the birds are paramount. A public viewing scheme also has the added benefit of taking pressure off other nest sites.

With regard to the nesting attempt that has recently failed. Almost certainly failure has been due to predation of the eggs, rather than disturbance caused by humans. Closure of a public footpath is a complicated process and was not thought to be necessary in this instance, certainly not as a first resort. Once the birds had started to nest a sign was erected at a safe distance from the nest asking birdwatchers/photographers to watch from that location. The site was regularly wardened and to RSPB's knowledge birders/photographers did not continue down the public footpath after the erection of the sign.

Jim Scott
Sites Manager, North West Norfolk reserves
Click to expand...

Thanks for this Paul, and also to Jim Scott for providing the information.

The point I would like to raise relates to the sentence I have highlighted in bold about birders not advancing beyond the sign.

Below is a segment of a conversation I had with a visiting birder about the events he witnessed on the weekend of the 25th and 26th May, during the period that the sign was erected.


"At least the sign is there, while you were there did anyone ignore its instructions?"


"Yes they did, not only did they go down the track but this car full of old gits drove down there and parked up. Right next to where the female had previously gone down. They waited but unsurprisingly didn't see anything and as soon as they left the male shot in a did the food pass. They came and joined us and saw it but we made it clear they weren't welcome and they got in their car and drove off. Always a few idiots!"


This is where my concern is. I have no doubts that Jim is doing all he can to protect these birds but to be there 24 hours a day would be impossible.

I understand the difficulties with land owners etc so it really is hard to create a viable alternative option.

Am I also right in thinking that a fairly high profile (not to flatter him too much) photographer has been removed from this site this spring due to approaching the nest?

Just to make it clear i'm not under estimating the job that Jim does for these birds, just raising concerns and points that I consider valid.

Hopefully the Monties can breed in another area this year before heading south again.

O.R
 
O.Reville1989 said:
Thanks for this Paul, and also to Jim Scott for providing the information.

The point I would like to raise relates to the sentence I have highlighted in bold about birders not advancing beyond the sign.

Below is a segment of a conversation I had with a visiting birder about the events he witnessed on the weekend of the 25th and 26th May, during the period that the sign was erected.


"At least the sign is there, while you were there did anyone ignore its instructions?"


"Yes they did, not only did they go down the track but this car full of old gits drove down there and parked up. Right next to where the female had previously gone down. They waited but unsurprisingly didn't see anything and as soon as they left the male shot in a did the food pass. They came and joined us and saw it but we made it clear they weren't welcome and they got in their car and drove off. Always a few idiots!"


This is where my concern is. I have no doubts that Jim is doing all he can to protect these birds but to be there 24 hours a day would be impossible.

I understand the difficulties with land owners etc so it really is hard to create a viable alternative option.

Am I also right in thinking that a fairly high profile (not to flatter him too much) photographer has been removed from this site this spring due to approaching the nest?

Just to make it clear i'm not under estimating the job that Jim does for these birds, just raising concerns and points that I consider valid.

Hopefully the Monties can breed in another area this year before heading south again.

O.R
Click to expand...

Hi Oliver

This my personal opinion and NOT that of the RSPB.

I am not really sure why people need to go and see the birds when they are nest building and incubating anyway. Everyone knows that the birds are a very rare breeder with very few pairs in the country these days. Why not wait until the young have fledged? There would be much more activity and there is much less chance of any disturbance.


Paul
 
Paul. All perfectly reasonable in a perfect world! Unfortunately news always gets out sooner rather than later. On that basis better to manage the situation?

I actually going to defend the photographer you refer to on this occaision. He goes to a site where there is a public footpath and lots of suitable habitat.

There are no signs at this stage informing him where and where not to go. He walks down a footpath, no law against walking down footpaths although I am sure some people on this forum might disagree!!

The photographer at this stage does not know that the birds are in fact nesting next to the footpath. He disturbs the bird completely by accident as a number of people have done.

Now if he goes back to the nest site knowing exactly where it is, that is a very different matter indeed!

As I said, always better to manage, particularly when a situation is forseeable.

Cheers.
 
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I have read with interest the recent anti RSPB comments which have been posted by some of the usual suspects. Get in the real world, they do a great job, ok sometimes they get it wrong such as the Titchwell hide, but the UK's birds, habitat and wildlife would be much poorer without them.

In Norfolk the RSPB, NWT, Natural England and National Trust, manage and safegaurd some of the best sites in UK and Europe, which support a host of rare and declining species, for which on here, they seem to be increasingly criticized, by those who know nothing about what it takes to protect these sites. In my experience the people that work on the ground locally are dedicated, work long and unsociable hours, for a modest wage, on a limited and in recent years falling budget.They face many challenging issues, one of which is the increasing bad behaviour by a small number of birdwatchers, talk to any warden, site manager or ranger and they all have stories of breeding birds being disturbed or habitat being damaged by birders, some of whom should know better. Before we starting having a go at these organisation, perhaps us birders should get our own house in order.

It was also suggested that the RSPB have let raptors down, just look at the number of successful prosection they help bring about against those shooting and trapping birds in the UK. It is not the RSPB who shoot Hen Harriers, it is the landed gentry and their gamekeepers, for which the goverment turns a blind eye, perhaps they are scared of loosing some financial backing? How many Red Kites, Common Buzzards and Marsh Harriers have you seen recently?

As for the photographer Mark, I am sure he was well aware where the birds were nesting and the potential disturbance he would cause by walking down the footpath. I wonder if it was the same photographer who was recently caught at the base of a tree elsewhere in the county which held the nest of another rare breeding raptor which he was keeping off the nest?
 

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