Pipit for discussion (1 Viewer)

StuartReeves · Mar 25, 2005

Tristan R said:
Hi Stuart

The birds are beginning to moult into summer plumage, though they are not particularly advanced.

Regards
Tristan

That was my conclusion which is why I queried your comment about birds being impossible to identify in winter plumage. As I said it is this transitional plumage which apears to cause the problems, not winter plumage as such. I must admit that confronted with one of these birds in March/April with any degree of streaking on the breast and flanks, my null hypothesis would be littoralis unless it was at a known Water Pipit wintering site. I would still try and look very closely at the bird to try and confirm the ID in either direction, but I would need to be very convinced before I called a greyish bird with a pink flush on the breast and extensive streaking a Water Pipit.

This point about jizz is an interesting one and not something I have noticed. I will try and have a closer look next time I see either species.

There are some nice photos of winter Water Pipit at http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=listpictures&species_id=565, and Rock Pipit at http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=listpictures&species_id=564.
Most of the Rock Pipit photos were taken in Denmark and are thus likely to be littoralis but all were taken in winter so they are not that instructive here !

Stuart

CJW · Mar 25, 2005

4 from today, including a presumed petrosus.

Edward woodwood · Mar 25, 2005

Tris

your two birds are wapits for me.

the features have been dicussed as nauseum so i won't repeat here - the wagtail like jizz comes across in a couple of pix

Tim

CJW · Mar 25, 2005

Tristan's birds are Water Pipits. No arguments.
Those wing bars (tips to gtr and Med coverts) are a bit obvious aren't they. Take a look at the posted photos of littoralis - none of them show such obvious wingbars.

Edward woodwood · Mar 25, 2005

yes Chris

but litt. was suggested and i can't see how really. The pix look ringers for wapits, nevermind the jizz diffs in the field

it does seem confusing...

Binocularface · Mar 25, 2005

StuartReeves said:
I must admit that confronted with one of these birds in March/April with any degree of streaking on the breast and flanks, my null hypothesis would be littoralis unless it was at a known Water Pipit wintering site.

Hi Stuart

This is where the quality of my images gives an inaccurate impression of the colour tones observed in the field. The birds are not particularly grey (apart from some greyness coming in on the ear-coverts). These birds are predominatly in winter plumage, and are only just starting the transition into breeding plumage.

I would be interested to know (if anyone has the info) what percentage of littoralis show gleaming white outer-tail feathers?

ATB
Tristan

Binocularface · Mar 25, 2005

Nutcracker said:
Very strange . . . what would they be doing heading towards Scotland / Iceland ???

Have to admit, that makes me very dubious

I missed this comment the first time around.
Just because a bird is moving Northwards in North Cumbria does not mean it is going to continue on that bearing. It is worth bearing in mind that we also get a spring passage of alba Wagtails, Little Gulls (only small numbers admittidly), not to mention Pomarine Skuas etc....................

During autumn at Grune Point (North Cumbria) birds always seem to move through in a N or NW direction. Presumably these birds are re-orientating themselves using known land marks?

Food for thought anyway!

Stephen Dunstan · Mar 25, 2005

Tristan R said:
I missed this comment the first time around.
Just because a bird is moving Northwards in North Cumbria does not mean it is going to continue on that bearing.

Tristan,

What evidence is there that these birds are definitely moving north?

Regards,

Stephen.

Binocularface · Mar 25, 2005

Stephen Dunstan said:
Tristan,

What evidence is there that these birds are definitely moving north?

Regards,

Stephen.

Stephen,

There is no evidence of this. However the occurence of these birds over the past three years has (as previously stated) coincided with a significant NORTHWARDS passage of Meadow Pipits and alba Wagtails - indicating that these birds are moving North.

Stephen Dunstan · Mar 25, 2005

I see there has been a Scan Rock reported there today. Has a new bird arrived or a new birder!

Regards,

Stephen.

Binocularface · Mar 25, 2005

Stephen Dunstan said:
I see there has been a Scan Rock reported there today. Has a new bird arrived or a new birder!

Regards,

Stephen.

No Idea. I have not visted the site today.

Binocularface · Mar 25, 2005

Hi

Darren Robson managed to take the attached pictures of the Pipits today, Other features aside, the rump (to my eye) looks to be a warm brown/fawn tone, lacking any olive tones. This is surely a pro- Water Pipit feature?

Regards
Tristan

Nutcracker · Mar 25, 2005

Tristan R said:
we also get a spring passage of alba Wagtails

Iceland!

Jane Turner · Mar 26, 2005

I too am not sure.... and would say what I can see could be shown by littoralis..... need to see T5..

I've seen a really streaky/blotchy bird with a grey mantle and sandy bum twice...

Jane Turner · Mar 26, 2005

CJW said:
Tristan's birds are Water Pipits. No arguments.
Those wing bars (tips to gtr and Med coverts) are a bit obvious aren't they. Take a look at the posted photos of littoralis - none of them show such obvious wingbars.

I've seen bigger wing bars on a Rockit... - fortunately one with buff outers!

Ghostly Vision · Mar 26, 2005

This is a very intriguing discussion. The more photos I see, the more difficult this seems to become.

Tris - your originals also looked quite littoralis-like to me, but the newer pics you have posted look smack on for Wapit.

Chris, the last lot you posted ALL looked like littoralis to me.

The photos on the Danish site are equally confusing in my book; I am not sure how many birds are portrayed, but some look perfect, classic Wapits, while others on the wapit page look like littoralis!!

This bird was taken in the midlands today. It has not been touched up for anything other than a little sharpening. All comments welcome - but please can those commenting give explanations of their train of thought?

Will be out searching again over the next few weeks, camera in hand....

Sean

StuartReeves · Mar 26, 2005

Ghostly Vision said:
This is a very intriguing discussion. The more photos I see, the more difficult this seems to become.

This bird was taken in the midlands today. It has not been touched up for anything other than a little sharpening. All comments welcome - but please can those commenting give explanations of their train of thought?

Hmmm, interesting bird! It appears to be in active moult from winter to summer plumage judging by the messiness, particularly around the face. This means that the plumage is particularly ambiguous on this bird, and further that some of the key featires may be absent. Having been a complete spinoletta sceptic up until now, my gut reaction was that this bird is a Water Pipit. It appears to show a clean white tail corner, and this appears to come from white tips on the two outer tail feathers. There is perhaps a little rump colouration visible and it appears to be warm brown. Both of these are good Water Pipit features. The breast has a good pink wash, and the undertail coverts appear whitish, with a slight pink tinge, again good Water Pipit features. The streaking is rather fine, rather than the thicker, more blotchy streaking of Rock Pipit, but the extent of it worries me a bit, particularly the two lines along the flanks, and the malar stripe is also rather heavy. The state of moult and the angle of the photo make it difficult to tell whether there is any contrast between the mantle and the crown.

On balance, if I had to name it I'd call this bird a Water Pipit. It seems to have more solid Water Pipit feature than littoralis features, and it is easier to explain away the Rockit features on the basis of moult. Of course the usual caveats about interpreting a single photo apply...

Stuart

StuartReeves · Mar 26, 2005

PS, this bird also appears to have pink legs, so maybe it is just a Meadow Pipit...

TWM · Mar 26, 2005

This looks quite similar to a Mipit at Rattray Head a few years ago. When first seen (in April) the bird had a brick red breast but this faded and by May it looked pinkish.It got an article in Birding Scotland by Paul Baxter.

Ghostly Vision · Mar 26, 2005

Thanks for your comments Stuart and TWM. As you can see from the additional pictures, the bird is in fact just a Meadow.

The initial photo was not put there to trick anyone, just to show how variable birds can be, even within species with no races or clinal variation. The pink on the breast appeared real in the field, too - but as can be (nearly) seen from the other photos, is an effect of light somehow - it didn't show pink at all at some angles, but buff.

This goes to show what crazy tricks light can play on us.

GV

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