Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
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Blyth's Reed? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter kuzeycem
- Start date
kuzeycem
Medicinal Birding
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Used to be a happy place
It was until this guy seemed to suggest a Chicken v Acrocephalus hybrid zone exists somewhere...:eek!:
Andy
What 'tours' do you refer to and are you suggesting that this bird is a hybrid, has hybridization ever been suspected let alone proved in Acrocpehalus Warblers???
İf so, will you care? You did not even wrote a few words about analyzing the bird. I send a detailed article. I prefer discussing and analysing of the bird instead of fauna PR work.
You sound like an academic with little field experience outside of ringing and measuring to me. To question an ID is one thing but this is not the way to do it.
My qualification is not the issue here. Species ID approach should be considered which is quite questinable on your site. Yes this is not the way to question ID. In this case "It is Blyth's. End of story. That is all." In birding tours this may be the case. But in academic world totally unacceptable. For your information; I am the first website owner about "Birds of Turkey" (birdwatch-turkey.com, not the fake one, the original one) which is established in 1997 (Now inactive). Camacdonald has stil links. I put there more than 300 bird species at that time. All of them photographed with manually focused film cameras. And none of them with a birding tour.
No one afaik has mentioned tours here, most contributors, like myself, are independent and most have much experience, not with chickens I admit, unless you count curry.
And just so you know, I see Blythe's Reed Warbler daily in the summer where I live and not in a net.
There are millions of birders in UK. How many of them are aware of subspecies of a sparrow, that they see on a daily basis, do you think?. Seeing a bird every day doesn't mean that you know every detail about it..
Sorry to make you unhappy guys. I did not mention chicken vs acrocephalus hybrid zone anywhere. My theory is, if you know someting about chicken genetics, you can understand bird hybridisation more easily. For example there were some studies about blue eggshel gene in birds in the past. And scientists solved the genetic structure of the blu egg gene. But, untill the researchers noticed that this gene (SLC01B3) expressed by a retrovirus (EAV-HP), the distrubution of blue egg laying birds was understood entirely wrongly on a evolutionary basis. Guess how the researchers understood/solved issues related to the blue egg shell gene. Studies on araucana chickens showed the evidences of bird's blu egg gene behaviour. There are many studies that relates chickens and bird genetics. But none of them are shown in bird tours. Yet, If you like lets go back to the identification of the Acrocephalus species that started this discussion.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
The sharp supercilium, plain wing and short primary projection make the bird really resemble Blyth's Reed Warbler. I think that leg and claw colour is good too. They look pale, but the bird as a whole is somewhat over exposed and the exact details of colour are not well visible. The length of the the outermost long primary (ninth or second, depending on which direction you like to count) looks good for Blyth's Reed, but the tips are just a little bit too blurred to be sure.
I cannot count primary tips in this photo. In any case, Blyth's Reed normally shows six or seven (the innermost is hidden by the tertials, and the two outermost long primaries are mostly under the third outermost long). The posture of wing does not affect a lot the relative position of primary tips, but more to relative positions of different feather tracts, for example when comparing tertials and primaries. When the wing is slightly open, the primary projection looks longer. This effect is easily seen when having bird in hand.
The bird looks like a Blyth's Reed Warbler to me. If it would be a super rarity in the area where it is recorded, one might want slightly more detail in photos, showing alula colour well and wing tip somewhat better. To exclude hybrids, for example. There are several documented cases of hybridisation between Marsh and Blyth's Reed Warblers, but the hybrids are nowadays very rare (at most) where I live, in southern Finland, but they may be commoner elsewhere. Calls would have been important too. Those of Marsh and Blyth's Reed are very similar, but Eurasian Reed differs distinctly.
I cannot count primary tips in this photo. In any case, Blyth's Reed normally shows six or seven (the innermost is hidden by the tertials, and the two outermost long primaries are mostly under the third outermost long). The posture of wing does not affect a lot the relative position of primary tips, but more to relative positions of different feather tracts, for example when comparing tertials and primaries. When the wing is slightly open, the primary projection looks longer. This effect is easily seen when having bird in hand.
The bird looks like a Blyth's Reed Warbler to me. If it would be a super rarity in the area where it is recorded, one might want slightly more detail in photos, showing alula colour well and wing tip somewhat better. To exclude hybrids, for example. There are several documented cases of hybridisation between Marsh and Blyth's Reed Warblers, but the hybrids are nowadays very rare (at most) where I live, in southern Finland, but they may be commoner elsewhere. Calls would have been important too. Those of Marsh and Blyth's Reed are very similar, but Eurasian Reed differs distinctly.
kuzeycem
Medicinal Birding
More photos of the same bird. In the first one, note the overall Blyth's structure with "banana" posture and short primaries (creating a long tailed look), as well as distinct supercilium in front of eye (ending right behind it) and long bill with greyish smudge on lower mandible.
Second one shows the supercilium and dark distal part of lower mandible. Also once again check the short primaries (though view like these may be misleading because of perspective) and grey legs.
In the last two, you can count 7 primaries, which is normal as the wing is still lowered (which is a point a certain person just couldn't understand).
Also, once again, check the supercilium and the stance.
Second one shows the supercilium and dark distal part of lower mandible. Also once again check the short primaries (though view like these may be misleading because of perspective) and grey legs.
In the last two, you can count 7 primaries, which is normal as the wing is still lowered (which is a point a certain person just couldn't understand).
Also, once again, check the supercilium and the stance.
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Thanks to your subject oriented commends, instead of personal approach. I agree most of your comments, except legg, claw and alula colors. Marsh and Blyth's vs. Reed comparion is correct but this approach is on species basis and on western subspecies. In Blyth's claws should be dark and inside of the curve should have yellowish color. In the aditional photos, claws seems pale and inside of the curves seems paler. In Marsh, claws should be pinkish or grayish brown on both sides.
What I am saying here is that to identify the bird by looking at the bird's claw, one should know both birds or all three bird's claws colors and their seasonal and age variations.
In adition to that, one should know claw color genetics which is similar to chicken claw color genetics. As you know there are dominant, recessive and intermediate (and many other) type of gene crossing possibilities of merging of two genes. Chicken breeders know well what could be the result of an intermediate heritage after crossing a dark nailed chicken to a light nailed chicken, and thus they can see the parents behind when they see a similar aspect in nature. If you are not involved in breeding domestique birds like canaries or chicken you can not figure these issues or it never crosses your mind that an unfamiliar bird can be a hybrid.
Same applies for bill length, iris color, and length and shape of primary feathers. There are species crossing zones and you can allways see some intermediate birds in these zones.
Considering this bird, after looking beforehidden photos, I am still counting eight pale primary tips. Even seven is not true. But you explain the cause. Bill seem to me too short for Blyth's. Legg colors are too pale. Alula color seems not right. Facial apperance should look less gentle than others. I don't see any coarse face pattern in these photos. Blyth's should have very dark bill with pale basal 2/3. I know some birds have wholly pale lower mandibule. But culmen should be darker than this. Rump and upper tail coverts showing some contrast with back feathers. It shoudn't be. Throat and breast feathers shoul be whiter. Nobody mentioned here the age of bird. Or plumage. Blyth's should have pale yellowish wash on face. I can't see these here. Many other minute details partially or totally don't match with this bird. This is normal in that area.
I gave a detailed study link of two articles. One of these article researcher says that he thougt the bird as Blyth's at the begining. But after detailed analyses he changed his mind. People who use 20 USD guidebooks for identification, do not read any serious scientific article, they can easily add the bird to one species. The problem here is not the bird is Blyth's or not. The real problem is deciding a bird according to shallow characteristics and trying to create a virtual fauna without concreate evidences. That is why I am kindly asking for field researcher's comments and papers for these species. Every word that I am saying has a serious printed proof about this threat. I am not saying the others has not. But after saying "decided, closed the topic", and again involve to the discussion is not the way of serious aproach. Anyway I don't have enough time to discuss continuously. I hope some field experts can join and give their comments, so that we can learn more detailed scientifically accepted information about this species. I wil check soon.
Best..
I think you read too much of the colour in the photos. In field photos there is always some colour cast and fine details are often not visible, or they may show in surprising way.
The bird is first-year (general freshness and dark eye).
Claws and legs of young Blyth's Reed have typically greyish tone. They are somewhat variable, and it is quite common to get impression that there is no much difference between upper and under side of the claw, even in hand. But often the under side really is contrastingly yellow, but upper side is still paler and less contrasting than what is typical for Eurasian Reed.
Bill of young Blyth's Reed (as Eurasian Reed) is still growing and often looks quite short early in the season. Typically there is some dark on lower mandible, but in most young birds and quite often adults too it is restricted and not easily visible.
Uppertail coverts and rump feathers often have a slight rufous tone, as have the edges of secondaries and primaries, which make them somewhat differently coloured compared to olive-tinged mantle. The variation in this is more often because of light conditions than the real plumage variation. Rump is somewhat protected from bleaching and therefore spring adults often have quite distinct contrast in colour between rump and mantle.
I don't agree that Blyth's shows yellow in face. Some buffish tone at most, but other species have stronger colours there.
Much of what I write above is only possible to see in very good photos or in hand. In field, the best identification pointers are short wings, alula colouration (the whole of outer web pale contrasting slightly with darker inner web, in worn birds this is less reliable) and call, perhaps leg colour. Even the olive upperpart colouration is often difficult to see.
I think that bill and facial expression of the discussed bird fits perfectly. In new photos the leg colour seems even a little too greyish and dark, but the differences are very slight to what is "should" be. I am somewhat worried about the alula colouration, which is not very well visible in any of the photos. It could be OK, but I am not sure.
My comments are based mostly on personal experience with the species, both in field and in hand (and Marsh and Eurasian Reed, but my hand experience of the latter is only from the nominate subspecies).
The bird is first-year (general freshness and dark eye).
Claws and legs of young Blyth's Reed have typically greyish tone. They are somewhat variable, and it is quite common to get impression that there is no much difference between upper and under side of the claw, even in hand. But often the under side really is contrastingly yellow, but upper side is still paler and less contrasting than what is typical for Eurasian Reed.
Bill of young Blyth's Reed (as Eurasian Reed) is still growing and often looks quite short early in the season. Typically there is some dark on lower mandible, but in most young birds and quite often adults too it is restricted and not easily visible.
Uppertail coverts and rump feathers often have a slight rufous tone, as have the edges of secondaries and primaries, which make them somewhat differently coloured compared to olive-tinged mantle. The variation in this is more often because of light conditions than the real plumage variation. Rump is somewhat protected from bleaching and therefore spring adults often have quite distinct contrast in colour between rump and mantle.
I don't agree that Blyth's shows yellow in face. Some buffish tone at most, but other species have stronger colours there.
Much of what I write above is only possible to see in very good photos or in hand. In field, the best identification pointers are short wings, alula colouration (the whole of outer web pale contrasting slightly with darker inner web, in worn birds this is less reliable) and call, perhaps leg colour. Even the olive upperpart colouration is often difficult to see.
I think that bill and facial expression of the discussed bird fits perfectly. In new photos the leg colour seems even a little too greyish and dark, but the differences are very slight to what is "should" be. I am somewhat worried about the alula colouration, which is not very well visible in any of the photos. It could be OK, but I am not sure.
My comments are based mostly on personal experience with the species, both in field and in hand (and Marsh and Eurasian Reed, but my hand experience of the latter is only from the nominate subspecies).
Tib78
Well-known member
The emargination of P4 is hard to see (at least on my monitor) on the other hand the emargination on P3 is quite visible and makes an obvious "kink" in the wing in several pics. And it falls way short of the secondary tips, thus indicating Blyth's.
Tib78
Well-known member
Your labeling is incorrect as the feather forming the wing tip should be P3 and/or P4 in all three species mentionned so far (Reed, Marsh and Blyth's). What you labelled as P4 is in fact probably P6. And what you marked as the emargination of P4 is, I believe, the emargination of P3 ( as it falls well short of the secondary tips, while the P4 emargination would typicaly falls level with the secondary tips).
Thanks for your valuable comments. Again I agree with most of them and have to disagree with some.
I think you read too much of the colour in the photos. In field photos there is always some colour cast and fine details are often not visible, or they may show in a surprising way.
Yes. Color is important for me while describing a critter. When I comment about the color, I always consider the digital effect of the D-SLR. For example if you compare Canon, Nikon Panasonic, or Sony cameras you will see that each one gives different color cast just as well different tele lenses. In old film days, most neutral tones was given by Agfa geavert films. Fuji was green casted and Kodak was yellow. These differences effected identification of some problematic birds in the past. Again nowadays changing from Bayern patterned sensors (CCD) to CMOS, some componens i. e. indium thin oxide started to effect colors in canon world. Canon devoloped a digic chip which memorized circa 40000 best colored photo's information on it and every photo taken by canon cameras are adjusted according to this database. Similar situation exists in other brands. So when we see a digital photo, one should consider that colors are not identical to real life, only closer to real and only the best beautiful part of the colors are recorded.
Similiar situation in human eye: purkinje effect. Some cells in human eye are more sensitive to red color in dawn and dusk, some cells are more sensitive to blue color in midday. Old English and French ladies used this trick by wearing saphire and ruby in the correct time of the day.
That is why professionel articles and books never talk about an iris color as dark, ligth, or medium toned etc. They always describe as chestnut colored, slate or ochre etc. And use a comparison to natural materials while describing a color. Similar situation in other measurements. For example "carat" word is an arabic word and originates from the seeds of Carob tree that have all its seeds allways same weight which is 0.2 gr, independent of seed size or shape.
To ensure standard lighting conditions there is a standart in international gem trade: for example a professionel gemologist examins the gems on a table inside of a naturally enlighted room 1 meter away from the window facing towards the North side (in northern hemisphere). Everywhere in the world it is like this. Sadly, as far as I know there is no such standart in bird ringing centers. In that situation two researcher, who attanded same place in different months, or different hour of day, can describe same color in two different description. Under all these circumstances, experience is the most important thing, while describing a colored item, in this case a bird.
I have made all this explanation to indicate that the "dark eye" seen in the picture may not be an exact evidence to indicate that the bird is young or it does not tell us which species it may be.
The bird is first-year (general freshness and dark eye).
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Claws and legs of young Blyth's Reed have typically greyish tone. They are somewhat variable, and it is quite common to get impression that there is no much difference between upper and under side of the claw, even in hand. But often the under side really is contrastingly yellow, but upper side is still paler and less contrasting than what is typical for Eurasian Reed.
Bill of young Blyth's Reed (as Eurasian Reed) is still growing and often looks quite short early in the season. Typically there is some dark on lower mandible, but in most young birds and quite often adults too it is restricted and not easily visible.
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There are many types of melanin in birds. But mainly two of them exist in bill and claw of the birds. These are phaeomelanin and eumelanin. Phaeomelanin establishes yellow based colors and eumelanin black based tones. In keratin structure, phaeomelanin replaces in days or weeks, but eumelanin's replacement takes years. When you see a young bird with black content in its bill or (partially) claws it changes least by aging. But yellow content can rather quickly change. You can think it like this: a black colored figure printed on a transperancy, when you put it over a dirty yellowish colored paper, you do not see a striking contrast. But when you put it on a bright yellow paper, you immadietely see a very high contrasted image.
Chicken breeders know well that if a chick, does not have enough black in its beak, there wont be more black when the bird became a cockarel or a rooster. They try to choose best pigmented chick for their breeding stock.
There are epidermal layers in birds beak i. e. Stratum germinativum, stratum transiticum, stratum corneum etc. Among these layers there are some electro sensor cells which serves to feel and find the prey of the birds. And these are directly related with eumelanin cells and describing species ID. I mean basically amount of black content in beak shows us feeding and other behaviour of a species and differenciates one species from the other. Contrast can change, but amount of black may change very slowly. I am talking about passerine birds. These rules are totally different for color changing, leather covered beaks i. e. White-headed Duck.
When we talk about claws, there are also several layers, for example phalanx, stratum germinatum, stratum transativum etc. Among the medium layer, there are also melanin pigment containing cells and these are species specific and directly related with birds nish or habitat (again electro sensors).
Today in modern life many people effected by heart attacks and vein problems. In 1850's Lewis Wright wrote about newly devoloped industrial chickens, that are yellow legged and produce yellow fat. We still consume this yellow leg gene carrying chickens and some research indicates that yellow fat causes vein problems. Actually this yellow leg gene comes from one wild chicken species, and white fat and skin gene comes from another (Gallus gallus). Today You can see a few main leg colors (yellow for asia, blue for Europe, black for Mediterrenean etc.) and many mixed leg colors in chickens. The leg color genetics in chickens gives direct clue to the leg color genetics of passerine birds. This article shows my claim about the beak, claw structures in passerines:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_black-capped_chickadee_Poecile_atricapillus
Accordingly, melanin content of the beak, shanks and the claws can provide us with the hybridization level of such passerine birds. If you can identify the true melanin content despite the digital effects in a picture, and compare it with experiance from the hybridization of domestic birds such as chicken or canaries, you can have a better understanding if the bird we are discussing is a pure species of one kind or not.
Accually, I think what makes Turkey an interesting birding spot for advanced or master birders should be such puzling birds instead of one pure species added to the bird list of the country. Because if you would like to see a Blyth's why seek it in Turkey instead of going to its type location. But if you would like to see the details of transitions in such difficult taxa Turkey is a living laboratory.
Uppertail coverts and rump feathers often have a slight rufous tone, as have the edges of secondaries and primaries, which make them somewhat differently coloured compared to olive-tinged mantle. The variation in this is more often because of light conditions than the real plumage variation. Rump is somewhat protected from bleaching and therefore spring adults often have quite distinct contrast in colour between rump and mantle.
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I mentioned above my suspicion about colour, and I think it would be safe not to rely solely on the colours to conclude about the bird.
I don't agree that Blyth's shows yellow in face. Some buffish tone at most, but other species have stronger colours there.
I did not say "yellow in face". I said "pale yellowish tone"
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Much of what I write above is only possible to see in very good photos or in hand. In field, the best identification pointers are short wings, alula colouration (the whole of outer web pale contrasting slightly with darker inner web, in worn birds this is less reliable) and call, perhaps leg colour. Even the olive upperpart colouration is often difficult to see.
I think that bill and facial expression of the discussed bird fits perfectly. In new photos the leg colour seems even a little too greyish and dark, but the differences are very slight to what is "should" be. I am somewhat worried about the alula colouration, which is not very well visible in any of the photos. It could be OK, but I am not sure.
My comments are based mostly on personal experience with the species, both in field and in hand (and Marsh and Eurasian Reed, but my hand experience of the latter is only from the nominate subspecies).
You already mentioned some of my suspects. Just for curiosity, is your experience with Blyth's from western part of its distrubion or from a place close to the species type locality? Anyway thanks for your comments, with which I already agreed most of them. I will "stick with my chickens" without internet for a few weeks where there are more in depth bird genetic information exchange. If a breeder makes a mistake in the domestic breeders world, he/she pays his fault with money and time. Sadly in birders world no such auto control mechanism exist. Only good friendship and respect.
Best...
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