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Norfolk birding (15 Viewers)

Stiffkey this morning. Fantastic looking day, the drive in punctuated by what I think was a Garden Warbler in song. At the fen, no sign of the Iberian Chiffchaff. Did pick up a Willow Warbler, Swallow, 4 Med Gulls, Green Sandpiper and Ringed Plover. Plenty Kestrels in the wing driving through Norfolk and one Sparrowhawk.
Cheers,
Jim.
 
Titchwell April 6th

Today's highlights

Hen harrier - ringtail west over reserve mid-afternoon
Velvet scoter - 8 offshore
Spotted redshank - 2 on brackish marsh
Bittern - 1 from Fen Hide
Willow warbler - 1 singing along Meadow Trail
Tree sparrow - 1+ on feeders

Paul
 
Wot’s this ear ?

West Runton turned up nowt again. The pond has been filled in even more. A short drive away, though, and a quick walk east from Beeston Regis Church produced a female-type Black Redstart, which just kept on going and over the caravans on the brow of the hill. The 2 ‘WRunton’ Med Gulls were overhead.

Muckleburgh had my first Brimstone, Small Tortoiseshell and Peacocks- and a Hornet ! Slightly unexpected this early- or is it ?

Gramboro’: quiet. Friary: similar.

A trek along the ‘front’ at Warham Greens was, therefore, in order. Most pleasant in the sun, quite sheltered from the southerly wind and these fabulous views of Short-eared Owl. It flew past me and pitched down, not far in front, allowing some shots on the ground.

A few Swallows were going thru west. And that was that- apart from the too-close Peacock.
 

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Ok ok...ill bite...

In regards the Norfolk/Suffolk boundary debate heres the facts. Make your own mind up...

The "new" Norfolk part was purely put in place as an "administerial boundary", hence residents of the likes of Gorleston and Hopton (where I live myself) have Norfolk postcodes and are dealt with by Norfolk county council to make the area easier to manage. This should have ABSOLOUTELY NOTHING to do with bird recording. For the sake of continuity OBVIOUSLY for nature recording it has to stay the same, intelligent insect recorders and intelligent bird recorders (namely the Suffolk Ornithologists group) rightly chose to ignore the new administerial boundary and stick to the long staying Watsonian county boundary. The current farce with recording isnt just restricted to this area, there are VERY MANY ludicrous changes elsewhere in the country upsetting many birders. In example there is now gonna be the likes of the administerial COUNTY of Southend-seperate from ESSEX and..if BBRC follow what they have been doing....surely eg the Ring-billed Gull there is not gonna be countable on Essex lists. So new administerial county borders are arising all the time..BUT USE SENSE AND ALL UK MUST stick to the old Watsonian system for bird recording.../comprende?
So in our case the boundary is...A CLEAR GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARY-A RIVER...(so yes Gorleston has in fact always been Suffolk)...NOT a Stupid ADMINISTERIAL boundary in the middle of nowhere along the MoD track at Corton (yes boys your damn lucky that Pine Bunting showed up at Choseley-and the Kildeer at Blakeney for that matter).
And YES we have strived continuously to make the BBRC change things to the correct recording method with reams of EVIDENCE to do so..but they still stubornly hide their heads in the sand.
BTW I do realise this is an antagonistic Forum area to post these facts...but /shrug....bring it on../wink
 
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Titchwell April 7th

Today's highlights

Firecrest - a very elusive bird in scrub near Fen Hide
Bittern - 2 in reedbed
Sedge warbler - 3 singing males in reedbed
Marsh harrier - 10 left roost at dawn and flew west
Willow warbler - 2 around reserve
Yellow wagtail - 1 on fresh marsh
Water pipit - 1 on fresh marsh
Blackcap - an increase today with at least 15 around Meadow Trail
Barn owl - 1 hunting reedbed early morning

Paul
 
Blimey, its ages since we had this debate ;)

Firstly, what we agree on:
1) The worth of counties as recording units would be decreased if all unitary authority areas were declared counties, e.g. Southend no longer being part of Essex.
2) Everyone using the same county boundaries makes comparing historical records to present ones easier.

What we differ on:
1) "The "new" Norfolk part was purely put in place as an "administerial boundary""
What is the definition of a county? It is an administrative term. Counties were areas that were ruled by a Count. Now they are ruled by local government. The 1972 Local Government Act abolished the old counties and established new ones. So the old "Norfolk county" ceased to be in 1974, and Norfolk county is now the one with the boundaries that you will see on a map. If I keep a Norfolk Birds List now, it makes logical sense that I record birds that are seen within the current boundaries of Norfolk, and would make no sense to me to use boundaries abolished nearly 40 years ago.

2) "This should have ABSOLOUTELY NOTHING to do with bird recording" Surprisingly bird recording was not considered by the council when changing the boundaries, hence why it has nothing directly to do with it. But as I state above, if you want to keep a list now, for yourself, it makes sense to use the existing boundaries. It is only if your data is intended for comparison against pre-1970s data that there is a conflict of interest.

3) "the boundary is...A CLEAR GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARY-A RIVER...(so yes Gorleston has in fact always been Suffolk)...NOT a Stupid ADMINISTERIAL boundary in the middle of nowhere"
It really doesn't matter if the boundary is clearly marked. If it has to be a river, I'm sure we could get some people together to dig a ditch. In places like Diss it goes right through the town, which is probably worse.

The common-sense bit
Realistically it makes little difference at all. People keep their own lists, with their own rules. I would suspect people in counties that gained land in 1974 use the current boundaries, whilst people in counties that lost land use the Watsonian system. It would be interesting to find out how many people use the Watsonian system in areas where that penalises them in terms of how many species they have recorded. If in doubt, record a grid reference, and then everyone will know exactly where you saw your bird.


Ok ok...ill bite...

In regards the Norfolk/Suffolk boundary debate heres the facts. Make your own mind up...

The "new" Norfolk part was purely put in place as an "administerial boundary", hence residents of the likes of Gorleston and Hopton (where I live myself) have Norfolk postcodes and are dealt with by Norfolk county council to make the area easier to manage. This should have ABSOLOUTELY NOTHING to do with bird recording. For the sake of continuity OBVIOUSLY for nature recording it has to stay the same, intelligent insect recorders and intelligent bird recorders (namely the Suffolk Ornithologists group) rightly chose to ignore the new administerial boundary and stick to the long staying Watsonian county boundary. The current farce with recording isnt just restricted to this area, there are VERY MANY ludicrous changes elsewhere in the country upsetting many birders. In example there is now gonna be the likes of the administerial COUNTY of Southend-seperate from ESSEX and..if BBRC follow what they have been doing....surely eg the Ring-billed Gull there is not gonna be countable on Essex lists. So new administerial county borders are arising all the time..BUT USE SENSE AND ALL UK MUST stick to the old Watsonian system for bird recording.../comprende?
So in our case the boundary is...A CLEAR GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARY-A RIVER...(so yes Gorleston has in fact always been Suffolk)...NOT a Stupid ADMINISTERIAL boundary in the middle of nowhere along the MoD track at Corton (yes boys your damn lucky that Pine Bunting showed up at Choseley-and the Kildeer at Blakeney for that matter).
And YES we have strived continuously to make the BBRC change things to the correct recording method with reams of EVIDENCE to do so..but they still stubornly hide their heads in the sand.
BTW I do realise this is an antagonistic Forum area to post these facts...but /shrug....bring it on../wink
 
Rouse a Rousel ?

That was my intention, as I drove to Burnham Overy, parked and then glumped the long trek, in a cold wind and under spitting clouds, towards the dunes. Reaching Gun Hill and trudging all the way around, the sole item of note was a male Wheatear. Hum !

I made my way east and encountered RGM, who’d ‘done’ the eastern section, where Ring Ousel had been reported; he hadn’t seen it. We retraced his steps, seeing remarkably little, except for a male Stonechat. Entering the pines, I walked with him some distance. The only notable occurrence being a group of 5 or 6 Bullfinches.

Turning around yet again, I started the even longer (now) walk back to my car, seeing a fly-by Peregrine and my first Little Ringed Plover of the year. The rain got worse, as did my aching calves. It was almost not worth it.

Norfolk v Suffolk ? I work in Gorleston and am employed by Norfolk County Council. I sincerely hope they get this sorted out, before my next salary is due !
 
While James makes a very decent stab at a counter argument (probably the best ive seen), I still dont buy it.

At the end of the day administerial boundaries change almost every year somewhere in the country, its lunacy to adopt them all, as is currently the case...where will it end...?....hopefully it ends in the BBRC reverting back to sanity. Yes Norfolk will lose a few records as will many other counties...it didnt bother them pre 1974 tho......
 
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So an old timer sees a decent bird on Breydon South wall in 1970 counts it in Suffolk. In your view does he now scrub that record and count it in Norfolk? You may say he can count it as the boundary hadnt changed then...but its the exact same spot...and should be recorded as such.

There was a plan to merge Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft into a seperate "county" for administerial purposes. The locals were in uproar and denied it as it would compromise their identity. In many other areas of the country such proposals are actually going ahead. They went ahead in 1974....they will keep going ahead. You may ask jeeez what thing stays stable over all this time so we can record acurately....hopefully you know that answer by now...

The guys with their Merseyside list have to scrub it all and do a new Wirral list..with its new boundaries? The guy with the Humberside li....you get my point im thinking....
 
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"So an old timer sees a decent bird on Breydon South wall in 1970 counts it in Suffolk. In your view does he now scrub that record and count it in Norfolk? You may say he can count it as the boundary hadn't changed then...but its the exact same spot...and should be recorded as such."

Is this a hypothetical situation, or are there actual examples? What difference would it actually make to anybodies list? Would there be birders whose position in the list rankings change because of this? Have 'old' records been reassigned or is the distortion continued? I wonder what other parts of the county boarder has changed? Or is it just that this is a rich birding area and therefore creates a more heated debate than other changes that have been made (I have not researched this much, so these last questions might be irrelevant. However, I have learnt that the Watsonian boundaries were created on botanical reasons and therefore directly affects the fauna, although not necessarily the accidentals that are probably being referred to in this discussion).

"There was a plan to merge Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft into a separate "county" for administering purposes. The locals were in uproar and denied it as it would compromise their identity. In many other areas of the country such proposals are actually going ahead. They went ahead in 1974....they will keep going ahead. You may ask jeeez what thing stays stable over all this time so we can record acurately....hopefully you know that answer by now..."

I remember talking to Pete Allard when this was mooted and he immediately started to identify more birds that would increase his list if 'Lowestoft was included in Norfolk'! There weren't many, but they were rather mouth watering!B :)

"The guys with their Merseyside list have to scrub it all and do a new Wirral list..with its new boundaries? The guy with the Humberside li....you get my point im thinking...."

I think that this all does show is the futility of listing in the first place. I think there is a big difference between recording natural history (apt phrase) and listing it! And I should know the difference as I list, not record!!:eat:

Out of interest do you keep a West Suffolk or East Suffolk list?!?;) I quite like the idea of splitting Norfolk in to East and West, would help with the lack of news from certain areas for us 'listers'!o:)!

PS I don't think county boundaries have ever been that significant anyway. I have heard of and experienced a number of 'Norfolk' birders who had counted the Corton Pine Bunting on their list and left the site, well before the bird actually made it in to the 'county'! And I have only seen one Killdeer in 'Norfolk', the Breydon bird!!:-C

:-O:-O:-O
 
I was asked by the Suffolk recorder to send in my Breydon South Wall ring ouzel of 24 March 2010 to him and have done so.
Have yet to write up my Norfolk Bird Report notes for this year but am minded to include the ring ouzel. Have photographic evidence.

It is easier for me in Norwich to get to the Lizardland area around Lowestoft than to Titchwell.

I have seen some excellent birds in north Suffolk.
In alpha order
Alpine accentor Corton lifer 2000
Arctic warbler Corton (Suffolk tick) 1996
Black-headed Bunting Gunton lifer 2002
of less rare species
the 2009 Ortolan also Corton (year tick and first for some years)


I thought that Bradwell was in Suffolk before 1974 and that Gorleston was on the Norfolk side of the political boundary. So I googled both places
Wikipedia says Bradwell in Lothingland district Suffolk until 1974 then Norfolk.
Gorleston became part of Gt Yarmouth municipal borough in 1835, three year after the Reform Act of 1832 and associated with Suffolk until 1891"Associated" is what Wiki says.


Can I count the Breydon killdeer and Gorleston booted warbler on BOTH county lists?
 
What difference would it actually make to anybodies list?

Would there be birders whose position in the list rankings change because of this? Have 'old' records been reassigned or is the distortion continued? I wonder what other parts of the county boarder has changed? Or is it just that this is a rich birding area and therefore creates a more heated debate than other changes that have been made (I have not researched this much, so these last questions might be irrelevant. However, I have learnt that the Watsonian boundaries were created on botanical reasons and therefore directly affects the fauna, although not necessarily the accidentals that are probably being referred to in this discussion).
:-C

:-O:-O:-O

Birds seen by me in places moved from Suffolk into Norfolk in 1974
Bee-eater x 4 Burgh Castle saw the Northrepps bird in 2008
Killdeer Breydon saw the Blakeney bird 2006
371 in Norfolk boundary makes no difference

Suffolk ticks based on Watsonian boundary which are politically Norfolk
American golden plover flew to north side of Breydon channel on 15 October 2003!! 2005 north Norfolk accepted BBRC
Booted warbler Gorleston 1996 also West Runton 2003 accepted BBRC
Killdeer south of Breydon 2005
310 in Suffolk including these 307 if not...
 
Radical idea, lets count lowestoft north of lake loathing in Norfolk. I can then have red eyed vireo and collared flycatcher on my norfolk list, all good
 
What have I started! lol

The bottom line is that if you want to compare lists then as long as everyone goes by the same agreed area then that's all that matters, its irrelevant of the actual area.

Despite most of us, including me, liking to do it, at the end of the day competitive listing is futile. A simple question was asked recently as to who was the highest BOU lister in Britain and nobody actually knows the answer, which seems ludicrous to me in an age of apparent competitive listing! Some people put their lists on Surfbirds, some on Bubo and some nowhere - so how valid is a 'competition' without all the entrants, or some using different rules like counting birds in Ireland on their British Lists just to up their ranking.

Anyway back to birding, I managed to find 8 Ring Ouzels on the patch today, plus Tree Pipit, Sandwich Terns, Willow Warbler etc so have had a really good day which is what birding should all be about.

Simon
 
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Hi.

Lets give Suffolk back the land they want, it would be a great place to watch birds, it already is, but unfortunately for them, not as great as Norfolk. I know it and they know it. It is not going to change overnight, it's just the way it is. ;)

Instead of all the debate, why not just enjoy birding in your own area that you allocate to yourself. If you count Gorleston as being in suffolk or norfolk, so be it. I feel people are getting obsessed with county lists, and the obsession becomes more important than the love of birds itself. Lists seems to become the be all and end all of everything to some birders. I keep my own county list, I love seeing lots of birds, but it's not important if I see more or less than you. What does it prove? I am top of the county list this year. It means nowt. Just enjoy birding.

Regards.
Billy.

P.s. I'm gutted man utd got knocked out tonight, or was it Newton Heath?
 
Hi.

Lets give Suffolk back the land they want, it would be a great place to watch birds, it already is, but unfortunately for them, not as great as Norfolk. I know it and they know it. It is not going to change overnight, it's just the way it is. ;)

Instead of all the debate, why not just enjoy birding in your own area that you allocate to yourself. If you count Gorleston as being in suffolk or norfolk, so be it. I feel people are getting obsessed with county lists, and the obsession becomes more important than the love of birds itself. Lists seems to become the be all and end all of everything to some birders. I keep my own county list, I love seeing lots of birds, but it's not important if I see more or less than you. What does it prove? I am top of the county list this year. It means nowt. Just enjoy birding.

Regards.
Billy.

P.s. I'm gutted man utd got knocked out tonight, or was it Newton Heath?

Not as great as Norfolk eh...? Hmm maybe click this.. http://home.clara.net/ammodytes/ then archive news then Sept 2008 (random example) drool...then compare with that month in the Cley square...or Titchwell square...this site includes the disputed area. Count the Honey Buzzards...count the Ospreys...how many Wrynecks....really 320 Wheatears in 1 day etc etc.

Dont get me wrong id love to be rich enough to live in Cley or pay for parking in North Norfolk if I could find a space...until then ill be happy with my poor mans alternative.

The disputed area has yielded me many great birds including Kildeer, American Golden Plover, Broad-billed Sandpiper, Collared Pratincole, Booted Warbler, Olive-backed Pipit, Glossy Ibis, Great White Egret, Purple Heron, Ross` and Snow Geese...not to mention missing the likes of Greater Yellowlegs, Semipalmated Sandpiper and Pine Bunting....so ...in fact yea ill keep it...in fact the area rivals most of what Norfolk has to offer.
 
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