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Hen Harriers go missing ... again (1 Viewer)

Finding it hard not to include profanity to express my absolute disgust at this.
The people involved obviously are unconcerned about the possible repercussions, this has happened in a well publicised area, the disregard for the plight of this incredible bird by these ****s is so deflating.
 
And we complain about bird persecution in the Mediterranean countries, how the hell are we going to stop this murder of our Hen Harriers on the grouse moors?, they know that they can get away with it and stick two fingers up whilst doing it, will someone please come up with an answer.
 
keith said:
And we complain about bird persecution in the Mediterranean countries, how the hell are we going to stop this murder of our Hen Harriers on the grouse moors?, they know that they can get away with it and stick two fingers up whilst doing it, will someone please come up with an answer.
Click to expand...

I agree with you about our hypocrisy regarding how we talk other countries down for wildlife crime when we're hardly an example to set to others and it's not just Hen Harriers that are dying on the grouse moors. I don't expect anything is going to improve after tomorrow if the gamekeepers mates are still running the country either.

Nothing will change until the masses say that we need a change in the law on how grouse moors are policed and I'm not too sure that enough people care.

It's frustrating that so few people can have so much say on what can and what can't be allowed to survive.
 
I really wish I can wake up in the morning and it is all a bad dream! Sadly, nothing will change in the morning when I wake up. I suppose one of the few solutions I can think of is a 24 hour guard. I know they have wide territories but there is nothing at all I can think of. The law does not work. The people who are behind this have no morals and they have been given many chances not only they will not change they get much worse.
 
I do not want to add onto the political comments here but is there a correlation between the decline in the Hen Harrier and the election of the Conservative Gov in 2010?
 
The shooters and the Hen Harriers co-exist in Langholm where they are an outstanding success.The gamekeepers provide dead chickens for food during the breeding season.
There was an excellent programme on Radio 4 explaining how it worked.The gamekepper they interviewed was a really decent bloke who described how food was left in prominent positions.Is there any reason a similar scheme can't be introduced in Bowland or are there more complicated reasons why not?Obviously unless there is a drastic change in the law they are flogging a dead horse here.
 
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Local people must know who these scum are. The police know who the scum are - or if they don't then they damn' well should.
This is done with the conivence of land owners, local law and gamekeepers - probably all belong to the same lodge of the Masons.
Time for direct action folks - get the torches out!
 
halftwo said:
Local people must know who these scum are. The police know who the scum are - or if they don't then they damn' well should.
This is done with the conivence of land owners, local law and gamekeepers - probably all belong to the same lodge of the Masons.
Time for direct action folks - get the torches out!
Click to expand...

Whilst it is clearly done with the connivance of landowners and gamekeepers (who are, after all, frequently their employees), I think it's a step too far to assume that the local law is necessarily involved or that the Masons are involved. I'm not saying this might not sometimes be the case, but that these two elements are not necessarily important elements. Neither is needed since it's almost impossible to effectively police extensive areas of largely unpopulated moorland to stop such criminality. Frankly, you have to be a pretty dumb gamekeeper to be caught; vicarious liability, although it has its faults, is the only way to go.
 
I've wondered over the years - being based in Scotland - whether one answer might be a big (hopefully a thousand people or more) picnic/slow ramble across the grouse moor as soon as the day of the big shoot is known. As has been said, it is very difficult to catch a gamie or others stamping a nest, poisoning, or shooting on 'private' land. They can choose their moment to illegally destroy our pleasure.

But so can we. And there are a lot more of us than them. Is it still a million members of the RSPB alone (whatever you think of the RSPB that shows a lot of families committed enough to conservation to pay the subs). What if we asked local members/friends/contacts to find out the date of the biggest shoots and decided to go for a walk in groups - starting the middle of the night before and continuing (now with family groups) into the day with picnics etc. Some would say it was illegal to trespass (in England) but getting lost/taking a wrong turning and ending up scaring some grouse away would not excite the police overmuch, would it? If it did then the resultant publicity would bring the whole sordid business out into the open and encourage a lot more people to take sides - and I think most of them would be on our side. In Scotland 'trespassing' is not even a crime.
 
den mather said:
What if we asked local members/friends/contacts to find out the date of the biggest shoots and decided to go for a walk in groups - starting the middle of the night before and continuing (now with family groups) into the day with picnics etc.
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A great idea but I can't see it working even if you did get support. Trying to get one officer to go and investigate an illegal shooting of a Hen Harrier is almost impossible. Get a crowd of otherwise peace loving people to disrupt a shoot and officers would be drafted in from all over the country to deal with the riff-raff like they did with Swampy and his mates.
 
pratincol said:
The shooters and the Hen Harriers co-exist in Langholm where they are an outstanding success.The gamekeepers provide dead chickens for food during the breeding season.
There was an excellent programme on Radio 4 explaining how it worked.The gamekepper they interviewed was a really decent bloke who described how food was left in prominent positions.Is there any reason a similar scheme can't be introduced in Bowland or are there more complicated reasons why not?Obviously unless there is a drastic change in the law they are flogging a dead horse here.
Click to expand...

I know Langholm is lauded as a success, but my argument has always been it shouldn't be needed in the first place. Its quite simple. Hen Harriers (and Buzzards, Goshawks, Kestrels, Sparrowhawks etc etc) are protected. Killing them is a crime. The perpetrators should be found and treated like the criminals that they are. To me Langholm and any plan that seeks to offset the 'impacts' of HH's on a Grouse moor is equivalent to putting, say, shoplifters in a warehouse full of produce payed for by the taxpayer and letting them fill their boots without getting nicked. They can still go and nick stuff if they want to, and it doesn't address the real problem of criminality. Lets say it works for HH's, what next? Buzzards, Red Kites? Raptors are only a 'pest' when they interfere with something that humans want to have for their own. Hence any raptor or predator - and lets face it Cormorants, Goosanders, Otters, Foxes, Stoats, Weasles and anything else that eats meat falls into that camp - is regarded as a 'pest' by the hunting/shooting/fishing brigade. The fact that they existed together long before we came along is moot to them.

The answer is plain and simple - ban driven grouse shooting or at the very least introduce vicarious liability. Unfortunately the courts in this country do not mete out sentences that are anywhere near enough severe for the guilty parties to worry about.
 
So if Langholm is such a success then why can't it be replicated in Bowland.
it is hardly rocket science-just put some dead chicks out for the Harriers so they don't kill the game birds:what could be simpler!
The gamekeepers of Langholm are happy with it and actually feed the Harriers themselves- so why not the Bowland gamekeepers?
Why spend all this time and energy closely watching nests when the killing is going on elsewhere-especially when the Langholm template is tried and tested?
The penny doesn't seem to have dropped.
 
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