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Is avian taxonomy still dependent on ongoing specimen collection? (1 Viewer)

One observation is "Does anyone participating here attribute any value whatsoever to the life of individual organisms?"

By focusing only on population viability, the answer is "No, individual antbird lives are of no intrinsic value." Most papers by museum folks on collecting issues tend to either start off saying one of these things:
1. "I don't know anything about ethics, so will not comment on that. But I do know about why collections are useful and important." And then you say collections are important and therefore because there is nothing on ethics, then collections are important so collecting stuff is really good. OR
2. "Collecting does not endanger populations" (somewhat dubious claim as there are examples like the Guadelupe Caracara, Ivory-billed Woodpecker and Great Auk where collecting - some of it museum based - doubtless contributed to actual avian extinctions). And then the same thing.

Either way, there is no value attributed to animal life, and if that is the case then because scientific collections are a great resource, you can conclude that all collecting is a great idea.

I think that some of those persons questioning this particular example would actually attribute value to individual organism life. Some of the discussion above is shrouded in population viability issues, but I am not sure that is really where people are coming from in their hearts. I am not sure anyone should feel embarrassed about that. In western "monotheistic theism" based societies most belief systems place zero value on animal lives, people eat meat and so on. Many of the most ardent proponents of museums and collecting these days are from North and South America, and I think it is no coincidence that "monotheistic theism" ideology is very widespread there and that recreational hunting and the eating of meat with most meals is also normal. In some parts of Asia, animal lives are valued. And in some parts of Europe, particularly the UK, many people would identify with a post-religious secular society where vegetarianism is very widespread. So there are cultural differences in where people come from on this topic.

Under a non-religious approach where some value (whatever weight) is placed on individual animal life, then an existentialist philosopher would ask: "Does the scientific or other benefit of the killing of these individual organisms outweigh the negative aspects of killing the organism." Possibly, scientists in the field are best placed to answer that question, but I don't think that many of them ask it very often. Many are just connected with museums being great and think only about whether having more specimens is a good thing for the museum or their study. And probably convince themselves they are not going to cause an extinction, hopefully, but that's it.

So I think there is a bit of a disconnect in terms of where people come from on this issue.

Thomas

Your problem is clearly in guessing that people attribute the same weight to each animal life and are incapable of distinguishing between different animals.

As a meat eater I can tell you beyond the legal definition of reasonable doubt that this is complete rubbish. Death happens all over the world and everything eats something: but extinction is forever. Accordingly, the life of an individual antpitta of unknown but (most likely, if newly discovered) limited population and distribution, strikes me as terribly important: whereas a domestic chicken is simply a basis for a nice Sunday roast. This is not a religious position.

Which concrete evidence of opinion renders your speculation and abstract philosophising absurd.

What would be speculation on my part would be if I tried to tell you that others feel as I do: but go ahead and ask as widely as you like. I am happy to speculate that I know what the majority of reasonable people in the UK would answer. Very much to the point, I have yet to see a communal eating situation in the UK where vegetarians were not hugely outnumbered by meat-eaters, and my experience is that when engaged in conversation UK people are generally against extinction and those who work towards it.

Incidentally it is in Asia that the annihilation of Tigers (and, I understand, now also Lions, presumably because the supply of Tiger bones is no longer assurable) is pursued relentlessly in order to supply a fake medicine market. Don't talk to me about the value placed on animal life in Asia. It is no more widespread or culturally ingrained than vegetarianism in Britain.

John
 
.... There are many, many threats to wild birds and their habitats, but responsible scientific collecting isn't one of them.
What about irresponsible scientific collecting?

It has yet to be established (on this thread) that the antpitta's population was verified to be large enough to sustain the collection kill.
 
... [Shirihai's] foresight wrt this owl is why he has a bird named for him. ...

Slightly off at a tangent here, but did he really ask someone to name the bird for him? Unless yes, it is named after him, not for him.

Important semantic difference between a vain ego-trip ("I want this to commemorate me!!") and an honour!
 
Guy,

I did indeed read your excellent paper at the time of its publication (a fact that is even documented in the BF thread on the species!). This is what Kirwan et al had to say on the involvement of HS:

"Subsequently, together with the late Prof. Heinrich Mendelssohn, Shirihai had planned to name the Israeli and related populations as a new subspecies of butleri, but due to the death of his coauthor and many other commitments this never happened."

To quote myself:

"The existence of 2 species of Strix in the Middle East was established despite the existence of specimen material, not because of it. Had Robb et al not heard and recorded their 'new' owl, we would still think there was a single species of Strix... despite the existence of skins in various museum drawers."

I hope you will agree that the vocalisations recorded by Robb et al provided the key to our current understanding of the existence of 2 quite distinct species.

Cheers
Duncan

If you had actually read the paper that first postulated that S. omanensis is a synonym, you will see that this is not quite the case. Shirihai had already realised years before that a second taxon was involved, but without vocal material had held himself in check (and having been a little burnt by his premature description of a certain Indian Ocean Puffinus). Nevertheless, his foresight wrt this owl is why he has a bird named for him. You are correct that the input of Robb et al. was quite critical in the process of realising that there was a second species involved, but museum specimens, and appropriate analysis thereof, were also entirely necessary building bricks therein.

You like to drag up the case of these owls on Birdforum quite regularly, Duncan, so it would make sense to have appraised yourself of what the different papers actually say and demonstrate.

Ooops, I forgot, it is the post-truth world now, so facts are irrelevant...
 
Your statement indicates a limited knowledge about the field of avian systematics and taxonomy. I suggest opening up a few recent leading ornithological or taxonomic journals (Ibis, Auk, Zootaxa, Molecular Phylogentics and Evolution, etc., and don't forget paleonotological journals) and see what material is being used by those doing taxonomic research. If you look at the methods, tables, acknowledgements, and appendices you will see that close to 100% of these authors rely on museum specimens to do their work. Some may use some unvouchered blood or other tissue samples (of which most taxonomists are highly critical), but these authors are heavily reliant on vouchered specimens as well. There is no substitute for museum collections for doing taxonomic work.

Andy

Andy,

I'm not sure whether you misunderstood my point. I clearly understand that effectively all novel descriptions currently rely on whole-bird specimens. My point was that if the lethal collection of specimens were to be prohibited, I expect that taxonomists would adjust their methodologies and continue to describe novel taxa, using a range of materials (photographs, sound recordings, in-hand measurements, molecular data etc), but without a voucher specimen.

Cheers
Duncan
 
What about irresponsible scientific collecting?

It has yet to be established (on this thread) that the antpitta's population was verified to be large enough to sustain the collection kill.

The antpitta still exists as a living species 10 years later. People have posted photos of it that were taken only a few weeks ago. I think that establishes it well enough.
 
Indeed, this is a case where one female brought the bird back. But, as I believe someone else pointed out: how much money and effort went into that result? Would it be realistic to expect that such could be raised for *every species* (especially if it wasn't even recognized as existing yet) that was down to such a small number? If you believe it could be, I think you have identified yourself as not of this reality.

Dan,

I was responding to an unqualified statement from Smilodon17 that a population of 4 individuals is not viable. As is demonstrated by the example I gave, this statement is incorrect. Had he stated that a population of just 4 individuals would not be viable for most species, I would not have disagreed; but he didn't.

Your attempt to ridicule me and imply that I am not of this reality by implying that I believe a bunch of ridiculous stuff you just made up doesn't alter the fact that he is wrong.

Cheers

Duncan
 
Dan,

I cannot believe your comprehension skills are so limited that you could really misconstrue my comments in such an extreme way as this, other than deliberately.

I just can't be bothered to respond substantively to your comment.

Cheers

Duncan

I find it incredible that you even read this forum if you don't! If a "relatively cryptic new species" is so uninteresting to you, and has no use to conservation, then what's the point of even bothering with bird taxonomy at all? Why does this forum even interest you enough to bring yourself to read it, or are you simply here to troll people unnecessarily?

I'm sorry if you think that conservation has not benefited from bird collecting, but unless you actually are in the field, I don't know if you are in a position to say such things.

Particularly in Peru, where I have some experience, the creation of a bird watching culture through the publication of field guides and other literature in Spanish (translated from works in English that were ONLY possible to produce through the knowledge gained from specimen collecting) has immensely increased a pro-conservation mentality in young Peruvians, both in wealthier cities and in small outlying villages.

The establishment of Parque Nacional Cordillera Azul, a huge national park, is, I would argue, a conservation success. Those proposing the park used the image of Scarlet-banded Barbet, a bird that was discovered during collecting expedition at a site never before visited, as its flagship species. Do you want to tell me that Peruvian officials weren't impressed by that bird's appearance and uniqueness and realized the importance of preserving its habitat?

Even EcoAn, an organization that has done some good conservation work in Peru (even though one of its founders seems incapable of avoiding making sniping comments about collectors when he himself was one), seem unable to avoid working in sites where collectors made major discoveries that were important enough to motivate their action. I recall a comment made about Xenoglaux somewhere above. It was (wait, let me do the calculations here.... ok, carry the 2...) THIRTY years between that bird's first encounter with humans (and subsequent collection), and the first time it was found outside of a mistnet (oh, but by people armed with recordings obtained by collectors). After which, EcoAn established a small reserve within a larger protected area, specifically because the owlet was there, which was only established through the efforts of museum collectors.

Sorry, I think you must be thinking of some other activity when you say collecting and conservation are not at all related...
 
My point was that if the lethal collection of specimens were to be prohibited, I expect that taxonomists would adjust their methodologies and continue to describe novel taxa, using a range of materials (photographs, sound recordings, in-hand measurements, molecular data etc), but without a voucher specimen.

Duncan,

Once again, are you saying this based on an understanding from having actually done such work, or simply based on assumptions about what goes into such work? This is not intended as an ad hominem attack, simply a clarification of your own experience in the field of bird taxonomy.

I'm sorry if my previous comments hurt your feelings. Your own comments seem to be similarly extreme to me. I am, for the record, still interested to know why you find this forum of interest when you know full well that nearly all taxonomy discussed within makes extensive use of the very specimens you abhor?

Cheers,
Dan
 
The antpitta still exists as a living species 10 years later. People have posted photos of it that were taken only a few weeks ago. I think that establishes it well enough.
That's after the event — though a decline in the population has also been cited without any suggestion of habitat loss. I'm referring to verification of the population status before the specimens were taken.
 
And to DLane above the examples you cite sound like side effects from the collecting expedition, not from collecting per se, or only historical in justification. The field guide would today be from photographs, and the Barbet could have been used as the park justification and emblem without its demise surely.
I have no doubt expeditions to remote locations are valuable for conservation purposes, but that doesn't immediately extent to taking the need to take dead birds home, does it?

Indeed you have a point, one could do a field guide from photos alone as referencework. I'm sure there are now some that have been made from just such references, but I doubt many are considered "definitive guides" by the people here on this forum. However, other than perhaps Western Europe and temperate North America, there are few parts of the world where such reference photos would be complete enough to suffice. And, having actually coauthored and illustrated a field guide or two, I can tell you that not having access to specimens for the progress would have made it nearly impossible to produce a quality work. Even in Europe and North America, basic knowledge about aging, sexing, identification, etc., is inherently rooted in specimen-based research. In a hypothetical world where there were no such specimens, I suspect that a field guide of such a nature would have so many inaccuracies that it would be extremely frustrating!

As for your point about not needing to collect to carry out expeditions. Sure, I suppose that's true too. But such expeditions are hampered by misidentifications that cannot be verified (even if photographed, not all photos are definitive). I can think of several such expeditions that have produced some erroneous "range extensions" that have confused followup work on biogeography and, yes, conservation. Plus, given how hard it is to get funding for expeditions, having the backing of a museum that can help in the expenses makes it far more likely that an expedition to a difficult destination becomes a reality.

Once again, I ask if you make such statements based on personal experience in the fields of taxonomy, field guide authorship/artwork, and expedition fieldwork, or are these comments simply based on assumptions you've made from the outside looking in? I think this question really needs to be answered by all in this conversation, because it really will be informative to see where each of those commenting stand.
 
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That's after the event — though a decline in the population has also been cited without any suggestion of habitat loss. I'm referring to verification of the population status before the specimens were taken.

Krabbe, Niels, et al. "A new species of antpitta (Formicariidae: Grallaria) from the southern Ecuadorian Andes." The Auk (1999): 882-890.

Heinz, Matthias, Veronika Schmidt, and Martin Schaefer. "New distributional record for the Jocotoco Antpitta Grallaria ridgelyi in south Ecuador." Cotinga 23 (2005): 24-26.

Heinz, M. "Ecology, habitat, and distribution of the Jocotoco Antpitta (Formicariidae: Grallaria ridgelyi) in south Ecuador." Diploma. Münster: Institute of Landscape Ecology, University of Münster (2002).

Predating 2006, the year the specimens in question were collected at a site quite apart from those covered in the above. It hasn't affected the species' existence at those sites (much as the original collection of four individuals hasn't caused local extirpation at the type locality), and the Peruvian collection site has not been revisited.

Now, you clearly don't believe individual birds exist if they haven't actually been seen by human eyes and counted, thus I can only assume estimates and extrapolations can't be slipped by you that fast. So, how many of the world's birds' populations have been adequately accounted for by your reckoning?
 
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Alan, please illuminate for us: what is the area in which you currently work?

It seems to me that your smugly-held principle is a lovely ideal, but that it is really not often used in most of science:

"Do we know that nuclear fission won't blow up the world through all-out nuclear war?" "Not extactly." "Ok, let's not do it then."
"Let's send a space probe out to the edges of our galaxy with information on who we are and where we live!" "Wait, might that not potentially lead a dangerous alien race right to our door and annihilate us all?" "Maybe.” “Consider that plan scrapped!"
"Let's innoculate this horse with a virus that is killing people." "But wouldn't that potentially kill the horse?" "I suppose it's a possibility..." "Well then, no!"
"I will give you prescription antibiotics for the infection." "But what if these antibiotics eventually cause a supergerm that will no longer respond to antibiotics and will cause a pandemic?" "Oh yeah, nevermind. Good luck with that!"
"We will send medics into the underdeveloped country to help all those poor, sick people whose lives were destroyed by decades of war." "But their culture will not allow them to cut back on the number of children they will produce, who will stand to live longer lives with lowered death rates and we'll end up with global overpopulation!" "Shoot, didn't think of that. Ok, forget that idea, let 'em die miserably!"

Science wouldn't really progress if it was constantly stymied by unknown potential issues and unforeseen consequences that we'd have to use such precaution against. Yes, those who practice science have to weigh potential outcomes and the lesser of two evils is the one chosen in most cases (actually three evils: the least, inaction, would not be useful). I believe I can say that we did just that.

Meanwhile, back in Flor de Cafe, our decision to collect the birds involved several aspects:
1) the threat of the loss of the forest patches that were home to the birds collected to locals converting them to sun coffee plantations (which has been happening even after the discovery of Scarlet-banded Barbet, so any comment that the discovery of the antbird would immediately halt clearing is obviously not true).
2) the afore-mentioned national park that was staring at us over our shoulders with quite a bit of appropriate habitat, and the use of educated guessing and previous experience to extrapolate to potential distribution and conclude that the species is not likely to be restricted to Flor de Cafe
3) the fact that we didn't have permits to visit said park for the purposes of strolling, much less collecting
4) it seemed more important to us to get appropriate documentation of the existence of this bird while we had the opportunity, rather than potentially lose it to habitat destruction in the time necessary to get permits for the park, do an exhaustive search of all possible habitat and establish a factual and exact world population. Which actually doesn't exist for about 99.999% of the world's birds.
5) to be sure that birders, benefiting from the discovery by going to the site and seeing the bird some day, would be able to snipe at us online using blatant misinformation and without having actually investigated the situation, visited the site, or otherwise offset their negative remarks by providing evidence that they are actually adding usefully to the conversation.

So, Alan, other than not apologizing for having now, twice, incited an anti-collecting furor through the use of unverified hearsay that is demonstratively false (let me link to a Wikipedia page here, since you did so above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation), what is your point?

Still not answering the questions Dan. As I predicted loads of waffle in response. Sorry, you have answered one question - the Antbird is NOT known from the national park.

cheers, a
 
Still not answering the questions Dan. As I predicted loads of waffle in response. Sorry, you have answered one question - the Antbird is NOT known from the national park.

cheers, a

And you still haven't apologized for presenting this whole tirade with false statements, nor have you offered up what you do for a living. Until you prove otherwise, I'll have to content myself imagining that it's working at the Sun.
 
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And you still haven't apologized for presenting this whole tirade with false statements, nor have you offered up what you do for a living. Until you prove otherwise, I'll have to content myself imagining that it's working at the Sun.

Sorry Dan, this is about your actions, not me. Two answers left.

Loving your cultural references.

cheers, a
 
Once again, I ask if you make such statements based on personal experience in the fields of taxonomy, field guide authorship/artwork, and expedition fieldwork, or are these comments simply based on assumptions you've made from the outside looking in? I think this question really needs to be answered by all in this conversation, because it really will be informative to see where each of those commenting stand.

Sorry Dan,
I thought I was clear a few posts back - I am making my comments/questions from a position of ignorance of the whole process (albeit with a scientific based degree - if Chemical Engineering could be counted as such in this context!). I am trying to understand why an activity I thought long consigned to the past is still practiced, and to highlight the reputational risk to conservation issues I hold dear that I see from its continuation. The world of 'trial by public opinion' is one that I have personal experience of (here I might be more experienced than you and your colleagues), and trust me it is not one you want to enter. There be dragons there, my lad!

I am just trying to learn and understand. I have to say that a poorer (or non-existent) field guide, less well described taxons, fewer well funded expeditions and less well stocked museums would not 'cut it' in trying to convince the sector of the general public here in Europe who put their hands in their pockets to try to protect birds and their environments. Your activity will fail currently in the 'court of public opinion' is my point.

Take a look at some of the comments on Birdforum that are anti bird-ringing for instance! They would ban ringing because of the perceived 'harm' (no data other than belief) to the bird.......!

But thanks for wading through the personal stuff to give me your perspective. It is appreciated.
 
Is it? So you truly feel no remorse for spreading misinformation? Wow. It is your own character you expose here.

I love the ultimatum. You think you're in control! That's so adorable.

For other readers who haven't waded back through all of this:

1) Dan collected four specimens* of a new Antbird at a single site in northern Peru. The bird is, so far, only known from this location.*

2) Dan says upthread that there are "many territories" in hard to reach areas. He won't say where they are, but we know now they are not in the national park. He has an opportunity to expand further on this point.

3) Dan won't say how many known territories there were prior to the specimens being taken.

[* please correct if this is not the case]

You can draw your own conclusions from Dan not clarifying these points.

A few points from me:

1) I am perfectly prepared to accept it is likely to be more widespread than currently known.
2) Similarly, I think it probably more likely than not that it will be found in the national park in due course.
3) If the collection was based, in part, on an assumption that it the bird is likely to be more widespread and occur in the national park, then why not just say this?

cheers, alan
 
Your problem is clearly in guessing that people attribute the same weight to each animal life and are incapable of distinguishing between different animals.

As a meat eater I can tell you beyond the legal definition of reasonable doubt that this is complete rubbish. Death happens all over the world and everything eats something: but extinction is forever. Accordingly, the life of an individual antpitta of unknown but (most likely, if newly discovered) limited population and distribution, strikes me as terribly important: whereas a domestic chicken is simply a basis for a nice Sunday roast. This is not a religious position.

Which concrete evidence of opinion renders your speculation and abstract philosophising absurd.

What would be speculation on my part would be if I tried to tell you that others feel as I do: but go ahead and ask as widely as you like. I am happy to speculate that I know what the majority of reasonable people in the UK would answer. Very much to the point, I have yet to see a communal eating situation in the UK where vegetarians were not hugely outnumbered by meat-eaters, and my experience is that when engaged in conversation UK people are generally against extinction and those who work towards it.

Incidentally it is in Asia that the annihilation of Tigers (and, I understand, now also Lions, presumably because the supply of Tiger bones is no longer assurable) is pursued relentlessly in order to supply a fake medicine market. Don't talk to me about the value placed on animal life in Asia. It is no more widespread or culturally ingrained than vegetarianism in Britain.

John

This is quite extraordinary, but briefly:
- I think Dan has given a reasonable explanation of why no populations were likely harmed or extinctions are threatened here. Maybe not to the level of proof wanted by some, but that is certainly the case for most collecting activities also.
- You should read more about how Hindis and Buddhists see the world before attributing eastern Chinese culture to a much broader region.
- Those who eat meat do so for hedonism (because I enjoy it, it tastes nice). It is difficult to distinguish that from recreational hunting (because I enjoy it, I like the thrill of the case). Scientific collecting actually results in enhancing scientific collections, supporting research and improving our knowledge of the world. I think the connection with conservation is tenuous and overblown by museums and collectors - but it is not non-existent.

Previous comments were interesting in saying that one can have a view on one issue and another view on another issue, without necessarily being contradictory but you do seem to be all over the place on this stuff.
 
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