SLR vs Prosumer - what camera will please us both? (1 Viewer)

hornet · Dec 14, 2005

At the risk of being melodramatic, please help save my relationship with some sound advice on budget DSLR equipment.
First the question...

I digiscope and am no photographer, but I want to be able to take a few closer range pictures, including moving birds. So I figured the Panasonic FZ20 (now available at v. low prices) might be the one for me.

My partner has been a long-time SLR user, and has not yet moved over to digital. She thinks from looking at online reviews (including DPreview and similar) that the Panasonic's poor indoor / low light performance (ie noise) is going to annoy her - she wants to do more indoor / portrait / event photography than I would.

I really only want to buy one camera, and £300 for the FZ20 is very appealing. However, I want my partner to be able to get into digital photography, and don't want her to feel like she's got the wrong kit.

So... (question at last) what's the cheapest DSLR kit I can get to match (or exceed) the performance and range of the FZ20 (430mm lens for example!), so I can go birding and she can get SLR performance all from the same camera.

I've been looking at the Nikon D50 body, but the range of lenses is overwhelming for a know-nothing. All help gratefully received.

Whoops, just noticed I've put this in the Nikon forum by mistake - please feel free to move it to the general photography thread if appropriate.

baillieswells · Dec 14, 2005

hornet said:
At the risk of being melodramatic, please help save my relationship with some sound advice on budget DSLR equipment.
First the question...

I digiscope and am no photographer, but I want to be able to take a few closer range pictures, including moving birds. So I figured the Panasonic FZ20 (now available at v. low prices) might be the one for me.

My partner has been a long-time SLR user, and has not yet moved over to digital. She thinks from looking at online reviews (including DPreview and similar) that the Panasonic's poor indoor / low light performance (ie noise) is going to annoy her - she wants to do more indoor / portrait / event photography than I would.

I really only want to buy one camera, and £300 for the FZ20 is very appealing. However, I want my partner to be able to get into digital photography, and don't want her to feel like she's got the wrong kit.

So... (question at last) what's the cheapest DSLR kit I can get to match (or exceed) the performance and range of the FZ20, so I can go birding and she can get SLR performance all from the same camera.

I've been looking at the Nikon D50 body, but the range of lenses is overwhelming for a know-nothing. All help gratefully received.

At the moment, and of course new models are appearing all the time, there is in my opinion only one model to choose from, and that is the Canon 350D/RebelXT. It will take all Canon EOS lenses old and new. Even at 1600 ISO the noise level is far less than the grain in a similar rated colour film. With 8 megapixels it is possible to enlarge bits of shots and still have adequate definition, so excellent photos can be taken without enormous and very expensive long focus lenses I could go on and on. Just get on the web and read up all about it.

JohnMTB · Dec 14, 2005

Hi Marc

Don't ignore the Nikon D50, very little between it and the Canon 350D, it is less expensive, takes excellent shots and the range of kit that can be used with it is massive. See

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond50/

http://www.dcviews.com/reviews/Nikon-D50/Nikon-D50-review.htm

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D50/D50A17.HTM

I've also got a Minolta Dimage Xg and Canon S1 IS and they have their uses but for quality pictures the Nikon is the best choice. Your other half will be more than happy. You may want something faster than the 18-55 zoom kit lens for digiscoping but it is great for all round use.

robski · Dec 14, 2005

Hi Marc

I think if you want to keep her happy your going to have to bite the bullet and cough up for a 350D especially if her old SLR was an EOS system.

There are 2 issues relating to image noise. The first is sensor size, most of the point and shoot cameras have very small sensors. The next is related to sensor design. If they can get the sensitive part of the cell nearer the surface of the chip it requires less light and will therefore be more sensitive to light and have a lower signal to noise ratio.

The 20D and 350D have lower noise sensors than most other cameras. Noise destroys fine detail and looks ugly if you want a smooth background.

Another factor to consider is that in order to keep the noise level down many camera have the ISO range limited or it drops the resolution at it's highest setting.

A link on sensors size

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/size_matters.html

Rob

Andy Bright · Dec 14, 2005

Does your other half have any lenses from her 35mm days? That could be a deciding factor on what you go for.
Nikon D50 or Canon 350D will be great for both of your needs.. both being very compact dslrs. Don't get too hung up on the minutiae of the actual cameras, both will out-perform the user in most cases

cheers,
Andy

greypoint · Dec 14, 2005

Having used an FZ20 it is not that easy to use for flying birds mainly due to its far from brilliant evf - any DSLR will be much better for that. Having swapped from Canon I've used a D70 and now a D50. The D50 is a total bargain - easy to use, a good size and what is really good is it's ability to shoot frame after frame without stopping to catch up. It's a great camera for bird photography. Pretty good high ISO quality too.
Best advice is always to try and handle any cameras you're interested in.

hornet · Dec 14, 2005

Andy Bright said:
Does your other half have any lenses from her 35mm days? That could be a deciding factor on what you go for.
Nikon D50 or Canon 350D will be great for both of your needs.. both being very compact dslrs. Don't get too hung up on the minutiae of the actual cameras, both will out-perform the user in most cases

cheers,
Andy

She does, but they're Pentax and I'm not too excited about their DSLR offering.

And believe me, I know the camera will be better than the photographer, particularly when I get to use it!

Does anyone have any thoughts on lenses? I've read all the threads I can (man, there's a lot of advice out there!), but a lot of it is geared to pretty serious photography.

I'm just looking for an entry level kit that can equal or outperform the FZ20 (and take decent indoor family shots for her). The budget needs to be as much under £1,000 as I can possibly manage.

For example - Nikon D50 plus kit lens (not great reviews, but OK?) plus a Sigma zoom up to 400 for example - any thoughts?

greypoint · Dec 14, 2005

You're obviously not going to get an actual equivalent to the lens on the FZ20 on a budget. On the other hand you need to use the FZ20 at the lowest ISO ratings to avoid noisy pics but any of the DSLRs can be used at higher ISO ratings if necessary. Don't know about the kits lens of the D50 - for a short lens I prefer a Nikon 50mm f1.8 - cheap and sharp and useable in very low light. As to a longer zoom, a cheapish Sigma 70-300mm APO Macro is a good budget buy for birding.

hornet · Dec 14, 2005

Really appreciate this help. That sounds promising greypoint - £660 for the whole kit on Warehouse Express. Bet no one can do better than that

The 50mm sounds perfect - in fact I've just checked and it's virtually identical to what she uses on her SLR now.

Would the 300 really work for me? A few flight shots, birds at feeders - 15 to 20 metres perhaps? And I don't suppose the non-apo version would be any good would it - only £99 on Warehouse, compared with a £159 for the apo (not a lot I know, but every little counts at the moment).

If 300mm is not enough, has anyone got any ideas for the next one up?

Andy Bright · Dec 14, 2005

hornet said:
Really appreciate this help. That sounds promising greypoint - £660 for the whole kit on Warehouse Express. Bet no one can do better than that

The 50mm sounds perfect - in fact I've just checked and it's virtually identical to what she uses on her SLR now.

Would the 300 really work for me? A few flight shots, birds at feeders - 15 to 20 metres perhaps? And I don't suppose the non-apo version would be any good would it - only £99 on Warehouse, compared with a £159 for the apo (not a lot I know, but every little counts at the moment).

If 300mm is not enough, has anyone got any ideas for the next one up?

Remember that a 50mm lens will be closer to 85mm when used on a dslr... your other half may get a surprise when she see the field of view being less than she had with a 50mm on a 35m camera.

Again, your 300mm will have the view of a 450mm lens on a 35mm slr...but 15m for small birds is very optimistic, 5m maybe more realistic... even my 600mm + teleconverter would struggle on a small bird at 20m.

cheers,
Andy

greypoint · Dec 15, 2005

It depends how wide an angle you want if the 50mm [75mm equiv.] will do as your short lens - agreed it's not exactly wide angle but if you're mainly into telephoto and just want a short, light, fast lens for the odd indoor or outside low light stuff, having f1.8 and good quality is a great advantage - you just have to use yur legs instead of having a zoom. The kit lens is pretty cheap so, again, if it's just for the odd shot it's probably worth looking at. The APO versions of Sigma lenses are worth buying for bird photography as they are great for avoiding that horrible purple fringing you can get with some lenses. The 135-400mm or 170-500mm Sigma lenses are inside your budget - I used a 135-400mm this summer and it's a very good budget lens. The only disadvantage is the 135mm short end - you can miss things when they're too close. My own preference now - without breaking the bank for a new top end Nikon lens - is my 80-200mm Nikkor f2.8. These are usually available for around 300.00 on Ebay for the earlier versions. It's a heavy, metal, lens but worth the weight for it's performance - sharp even wide open at f2.8. Because it's fast it can be coupled with a teleconverter to double the length - so you have in effect a 120mm - 300mm at f2.8 and a 240mm - 600mm losing a couple of stops.
If you take a look in my gallery, most of the latest photos were taken with that lens - the last portrait of a swan, without the t/con - the one of the cygnet stretching it's wings was taken from a long way off, with the t/con attached and heavily cropped afterwards.

baillieswells · Dec 15, 2005

SLR vs Prosumer - what camera...

hornet said:
At the risk of being melodramatic, please help save my relationship with some sound advice on budget DSLR equipment.
First the question...

I digiscope and am no photographer, but I want to be able to take a few closer range pictures, including moving birds. So I figured the Panasonic FZ20 (now available at v. low prices) might be the one for me.

My partner has been a long-time SLR user, and has not yet moved over to digital. She thinks from looking at online reviews (including DPreview and similar) that the Panasonic's poor indoor / low light performance (ie noise) is going to annoy her - she wants to do more indoor / portrait / event photography than I would.

I really only want to buy one camera, and £300 for the FZ20 is very appealing. However, I want my partner to be able to get into digital photography, and don't want her to feel like she's got the wrong kit.

So... (question at last) what's the cheapest DSLR kit I can get to match (or exceed) the performance and range of the FZ20 (430mm lens for example!), so I can go birding and she can get SLR performance all from the same camera.

I've been looking at the Nikon D50 body, but the range of lenses is overwhelming for a know-nothing. All help gratefully received.

Whoops, just noticed I've put this in the Nikon forum by mistake - please feel free to move it to the general photography thread if appropriate.

As for lenses, with my Canon 350D I have purchased a Sigma 10-20mm and the Canon 17-85mm Image Stabilized lens. This latter is much superior to the kit lens. (Canon have recently brought out a 24-105mm f4L IS lens, this was not available when I purchased the 17-85mm). Left over from my Canon EOS5 film days I have a Canon 70-200f4L lens and 1.4 extender. On the 350D this gives a maximum of 448mm.This is one of the best lenses Canon have produced, and is reasonably priced. I also have the 100-300mm lens which is rather soft, a 50mm f1.8 prime lens which is superb, but at 80mm equivalent is not much use for birding, and a 24mm f2.8 prime lens which is also very good. I am contemplating getting either the Sigma 170 - 500mm lens or the Tamron 200-500mm lens. I am getting conflicting reports, both good and bad on both. I cannot afford the long focus Canon lenses.

hornet · Dec 15, 2005

Thanks for all the advice - this, together with some really good threads elsewhere (thanks Tannin), has given me a much better idea of what the DSLR route entails, plus the cash involved.

It has certainly had an impact on my partner's views. She took one look at the sort of budget required and instantly changed her mind - she wants me to buy the Panasonic. Turns out she's not so precious about noisy low-light images after all!

A bargain £280 for the Panasonic just seems too tempting vs £700+ for the DSLR (with all the improvements it would bring) - particularly since with a baby on the way, neither of us are going to get a lot of time for photography (or anything else apparently!)

We will use the Panasonic to explore digital photography further, and if in a year we are frustrated by the quality, we can then upgrade, having not wasted too much money on the Panasonic. The other bonus is that I don't imagine DSLR prices are going to go up in the long-term (and the D50 is already a great price).

Thanks again for all your help - just goes to prove again that there is nowhere better to discuss these decisions than Bird Forum :t:

Yelvertoft · Dec 15, 2005

hornet said:
She does, but they're Pentax and I'm not too excited about their DSLR offering.

And believe me, I know the camera will be better than the photographer, particularly when I get to use it!

Does anyone have any thoughts on lenses? I've read all the threads I can (man, there's a lot of advice out there!), but a lot of it is geared to pretty serious photography.

I'm just looking for an entry level kit that can equal or outperform the FZ20 (and take decent indoor family shots for her). The budget needs to be as much under £1,000 as I can possibly manage.

For example - Nikon D50 plus kit lens (not great reviews, but OK?) plus a Sigma zoom up to 400 for example - any thoughts?

If these are your criteria, what is so terribly wrong with the Pentax *ist DL? Its capabilities are still greater than most users ability. Fully backwards compatible lenses, ALL of them. The DL is an entry level dSLR that will far out perform the FZ20 for picture quality (I've compared my *ist DS directly against and FZ10 side by side and there is no contest). The budget is well under £1000, even further under as she won't have to buy so many lenses (kit lens is pretty good anyway). I've got a Sigma 135-400 waiting for me after xmas, cost £199 from WE.

The only thing wrong with Pentax is their (lack of) marketing strategy. It seems to meet the criteria you've set yourself.

Duncan.

hornet · Dec 17, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
If these are your criteria, what is so terribly wrong with the Pentax *ist DL? Its capabilities are still greater than most users ability. Fully backwards compatible lenses, ALL of them. The DL is an entry level dSLR that will far out perform the FZ20 for picture quality (I've compared my *ist DS directly against and FZ10 side by side and there is no contest). The budget is well under £1000, even further under as she won't have to buy so many lenses (kit lens is pretty good anyway). I've got a Sigma 135-400 waiting for me after xmas, cost £199 from WE.

The only thing wrong with Pentax is their (lack of) marketing strategy. It seems to meet the criteria you've set yourself.

Duncan.

Thanks Duncan, this does indeed seem a good option when we decide to go the DSLR route. With the camera body plus the Sigma (and the lenses we already have), it's about £650 to £700 at the moment - not disimiliar to the Nikon D50 route, and therefore worthy of consideration.

I think we're both comfortable going with the FZ20 for now (at £280 it's a lot of lens for not much money) and exploring photography a little more - for her it's an intro to digital photography, and for me it's my first non-digiscoping photography. I think I need to convince myself that a camera would see pretty regular action before committing to a £500+ budget.

BTW, you're not wrong about their marketing strategy, it's terrible, and their distribution is pretty poor. I presume it's just the UK they're missing out on. Surely they can't be that bad worldwide?

Yelvertoft · Dec 18, 2005

hornet said:
BTW, you're not wrong about their marketing strategy, it's terrible, and their distribution is pretty poor. I presume it's just the UK they're missing out on. Surely they can't be that bad worldwide?

The distribution is poor because the marketing is poor. Because the marketing is poor, people don't talk about them or want to try them in the shops. If people don't walk into dealers asking about them the dealers don't want to hold stock no-one is asking about. The cycle continues so everyone perceives the camera as rubbish.

Marketing in the USA is much better than here and they have really got quite a strong following in Oz, primarily because their distributor does a good job of marketing down under. However, they really are a small company compared to C/N and cannot throw the same kind of money at the market.

The Pentax philosohy of camera design and use is quite different to Nikon/Canon, if your partner gets on well with her film Pentax, she'll get on well with digital Pentax, when the time for a dSLR comes!

I walked into one of my local shops (that I don't normally use) and saw they had the DL in stock, on prominent display. I commented "Oh, didn't realise you stocked Pentax". The assistant smiled and said "Yes, we sell a lot of Pentax actually. They just seem to walk out of the door on their own". Clearly he wasn't impressed by the marketing strategy either.

Duncan.

SLR vs Prosumer - what camera will please us both? (1 Viewer)

More options

hornet

Well-known member

baillieswells

Well-known member

JohnMTB

Active member

robski

Well-known member

Andy Bright

Administrator

greypoint

Well-known member

hornet

Well-known member

greypoint

Well-known member

hornet

Well-known member

Andy Bright

Administrator

greypoint

Well-known member

baillieswells

Well-known member

hornet

Well-known member

Yelvertoft

Rabbit Fan

hornet

Well-known member

Yelvertoft

Rabbit Fan

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread