• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

great skua killed an adult ganet (1 Viewer)

A life time of experience and research holds little weight against a random photo in his eyes. If the GBB Gull had killed the Osprey thee photographers would have posted the images of the former eating the latter but so far none have been posted.


To answer your first point. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that the interaction between the Osprey and the Heron would have ended in the death of the latter. On the second, and more contentious point, I happen to know that many people on here are working as, or have worked as professional ornithologists ( myself included ). I have been birdwatching for 53 years, on all continents, Great Skua are a north east Atlantic endemic and I, unlike you, live in the area. My knowledge of southern Skua taxa comes from a year on a research vessel in the south Atlantic, working in ornithological based conservation in New Zealand and, for my final taxon, Chilean Skua, my 6 week visit to Chile last year. To state that I and others have 'no experience apart from watching a few birds here and there' shows that, apart from searching out disparate pieces of 'proof' in an attempt to bolster your fixation with Skuas, Gulls, raptors and Ravens, you haven't bothered to do the most cursory research into the members on here. The knowledge gained by myself and others, over many years, has been gained in the field, with the birds themselves not, as yours appears to have been, by your statements, selectively extracted from books and the web. As for 'growing up' I would suggest you temper your language until you have garnered at least a tiny bit of knowledge that will enable you to discuss things with adults.

Chris
 
I saw this thread a while back when it was first posted and thought it was an interesting point about the the Gannet. I have now noticed it has grown to the fourth page, and wondered why. Now I know. Absolutely brilliant! I cannot honestly believe that scuba0095 is for real, unless he is 13 years old. Perhaps answers to the following simple quesitons would enlighten us, ignorant, non-ornithologists as to your experience:

1. Which of the following have you seen in the wild - Great Skua, Common Buzzard, Northern Goshawk, Raven, Gyr Falcon?
2. Have you ever witnessed any of the above attack anything or each other?
3. If you disklike falconers so much, why are you quoting falconer friends anecdotally?
4. How old are you?
5. Are you for real?
6. Do you honestly think that your half-baked attempts to discredit very knowledgable people on this forum will have any effect other than to discredit yourself?

Andy M.
 
I knew it was somewhere in amongst the 'posts' by scuba0095.

the goshawk is more of a killer yeah but it uses speed ounce for ounce it is much weaker than other species excluding falconers of course, the only falcon species i know of that is more powerful talon was than many hawks are caracaras

Accipters (Goshawk etc. ) do NOT kill by speed, larger Falcons ( a totally different group of birds, with a different structure, particularly the feet and a different hunting strategy ) do. An accipters foot has evolved to grip and penetrate prey. The talons of Northern Sparrowhawk, an old world species smaller than Goshawk, can penetrate up to 1cm., more than enough to pierce the vital organs of a Common Wood Pigeon, a bird 40% larger / heavier than even the largest female. Larger Falcons kill, in most cases, by high speed collision with the prey, breaking the neck or rupturing vital organs, so do NOT require such a powerful grip. Caracas's ( including the 'Johnny Rooks' you mention ) are primarily carrion feeders ( in fact they fill the same niche in Falconidae as Vultures do in Accipteridae ) with a small percentage of live prey in the form of small mammals and reptiles and insects. They are also mainly terrestrial which precludes the evolution of powerful feet and sharp talons as they would be either an encumberance, in the case of long sharp claws, or pointless, in the case of strong, gripping feet.
Please stop trawling the internet for pictures of birds of prey and then attempting to impose your woefully inept views of how they should behave upon them, and do some real research. You will find that you'll learn a lot more.

Chris
 
There appears to be a fish in the Osprey's talons?
Sorry if I didn't make my point clear. It was that Scuba0095 seemed to be disputing, or ignoring, the point made by yourself and Martin Kitching, which was that the Osprey was at a disadvantage because it had not long surfaced from making a catch and so was at a disadvantage. I thought he should address this.
 
I am shocked at the lack of experience here and the inability of people to do there own research wow

I found the original pictures

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-78007.html

Clearly the gull took down the osprey


Johnny rooks not aggressive huh? YOu clearly never done any research on them.


South polar skua has nothing to do with this we are talking about brown skuas. THey always give way to giant p's. Also both the tristan skua and the subantartic skua are LARGER by weight.

And someone here seriously thinks a herring gull will be harder to kill than a LBB gull?



Skuas and Jaegers: A Guide to the Skuas and Jaegers of the World [Hardcover]
Mr. Klaus Malling Olsen (Author), Hans Larsson (Author)


Here someone captures a johnny rook killing a brown skua

http://www.jandcimages.com/photo_8587077.html

ALL the albatross family are dominant over skuas in the south pretty much.
 

Attachments

  • 987519_gal.jpg
    987519_gal.jpg
    68.2 KB · Views: 102
  • MR0101.jpg
    MR0101.jpg
    269.9 KB · Views: 136
Last edited:
Martin making up things that never happened wont give you any credibility either.

Changing the temperaments of certain birds and pretending they are something they aren't? wont give you any credibility either.

Not admitting you are wrong wont give you any credibility either sorry.
 
To answer your first point. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that the interaction between the Osprey and the Heron would have ended in the death of the latter. On the second, and more contentious point, I happen to know that many people on here are working as, or have worked as professional ornithologists ( myself included ). I have been birdwatching for 53 years, on all continents, Great Skua are a north east Atlantic endemic and I, unlike you, live in the area. My knowledge of southern Skua taxa comes from a year on a research vessel in the south Atlantic, working in ornithological based conservation in New Zealand and, for my final taxon, Chilean Skua, my 6 week visit to Chile last year. To state that I and others have 'no experience apart from watching a few birds here and there' shows that, apart from searching out disparate pieces of 'proof' in an attempt to bolster your fixation with Skuas, Gulls, raptors and Ravens, you haven't bothered to do the most cursory research into the members on here. The knowledge gained by myself and others, over many years, has been gained in the field, with the birds themselves not, as yours appears to have been, by your statements, selectively extracted from books and the web. As for 'growing up' I would suggest you temper your language until you have garnered at least a tiny bit of knowledge that will enable you to discuss things with adults.

Chris

53 years and you still have not learned much. I imagine most of these are in their 60s. Which is why they are acting this way. All vile and offended. Most people know how to debate without busting their blood vessel.


Anyone with the amount of experience you claim would never say "johnny rook is not an aggressive bird. Nor would you consider a LBB gull and a herring gull that far apart. Clearly you would have known by now that great skuas kill herring gulls if you were 53 years into birds. I should not have had to show you all this. You would have known the largest skuas are the new zealand sub species also.

There are people here that do have a lot of field exerience with skuas and all sorts of birds. None have posted in this thread so far. Recently. They are probably out in the field or writing articles not on the internet making up things trying to pretend to be an expert.
 
Last edited:
I am shocked at the lack of experience here and the inability of people to do there own research wow

Hadn't intended doing this but here's my experience, feel free to comment on whether or not it's lacking; birding for the last 42 years (since the age of 4). Professional birdwatching guide. Previously a Schedule 1 Disturbance Licence holder for three of Britain's rarest breeding raptors (although I gave that up when another research project took over all of my non-work time). Well over 1000hrs at sea in the last 16 years - finding, identifying and photographing marine wildlife and carrying out research projects - so I'm pretty familiar with all 4 Northern Hemisphere skuas, LBBG, GBBG, Herring Gull etc. PhD, so I think I have a pretty good grasp of how to do research ;)

Well, got to give you credit for persistence. Still waiting for you to detail your own experience though.

scuba0095 said:
I found the original pictures

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-78007.html

Clearly the gull took down the osprey

The only thing in that link is that contradicts anything posted here is the photographer's lack of understanding of aerodynamics and physics. He confirms that the GBBG has a hold of a fish that the Osprey is gripping in it's talons. In the picture that he says shows the GBBG has flown the Osprey into the water, the relative positions of the birds is such that they're still both hanging on to the one fish

scuba0095 said:
And someone here seriously thinks a herring gull will be harder to kill than a LBB gull?

Only people who are familiar with both species...

scuba0095 said:
The osprey never surfaced it was a clear made up lie from members of the forum for who knows what reasons. There has not been one single thing you have been right on so far.

If it never surfaced, are you postulating that the fish it is carrying was caught in mid-air? You do know how Osprey's catch fish don't you?

scuba0095 said:
ALL the albatross family are dominant over skuas in the south pretty much.

You're as persistent as herpes aren't you?

That's me finished with trying to have any sort of discussion with you now. Your posts make it clear that either (a) you were dropped on your head as a baby (b) you're on drugs (c) you're illiterate and genuinely don't understand what other posters are writing or (d) some combination of the above. Whichever, you're a waste of oxygen that could otherwise be feeding the brain of someone that is capable of using it.
 
I knew it was somewhere in amongst the 'posts' by scuba0095.



Accipters (Goshawk etc. ) do NOT kill by speed, larger Falcons ( a totally different group of birds, with a different structure, particularly the feet and a different hunting strategy ) do. An accipters foot has evolved to grip and penetrate prey. The talons of Northern Sparrowhawk, an old world species smaller than Goshawk, can penetrate up to 1cm., more than enough to pierce the vital organs of a Common Wood Pigeon, a bird 40% larger / heavier than even the largest female. Larger Falcons kill, in most cases, by high speed collision with the prey, breaking the neck or rupturing vital organs, so do NOT require such a powerful grip. Caracas's ( including the 'Johnny Rooks' you mention ) are primarily carrion feeders ( in fact they fill the same niche in Falconidae as Vultures do in Accipteridae ) with a small percentage of live prey in the form of small mammals and reptiles and insects. They are also mainly terrestrial which precludes the evolution of powerful feet and sharp talons as they would be either an encumberance, in the case of long sharp claws, or pointless, in the case of strong, gripping feet.
Please stop trawling the internet for pictures of birds of prey and then attempting to impose your woefully inept views of how they should behave upon them, and do some real research. You will find that you'll learn a lot more.

Chris


Caracaras clearly have stronger feed than their coulsins (falcons) Have you ever held a cormorant? You would know they are much stronger than a duck. This one has no trouble killing one with no stoop. There are plenty of displays with caracaras for shows. Anyone who has worked with one will agree they can easily kill a rabbit or a hare in seconds.

http://www.arkive.org/striated-caracara/phalcoboenus-australis/video-08b.html

You clearly still have no experience in even researching them. They are scavangers sure but can be killers when they want to be. Just like some vulture species have strong feet.

It does not take a scientist to figure out a goshawk has stronger feet than a falcon. But still not nearly as strong as the buteo hawks.
 

Attachments

  • Striated-caracara-killing-upland-goose.jpg
    Striated-caracara-killing-upland-goose.jpg
    92.6 KB · Views: 104
Last edited:
okay enlighten me martin if a LBB gull is able to chase off a herring gull why is a herring gull harder to kill? because it is a tiny bit bigger?


And if you really had that much experience how can you not know that great skuas kill herring gulls? You would have known they dont pick and choose LBB gulls they kill any gull when they get a good chance, other than GBB gulls. You would have known some individual skuas specialize in gulls also. The LBB gull and Herring gull are on the same tropic level. Neither species seems to and dominate the other. Acting like the difference between them is as big as a ring billed gull and herring gull is ridiculous. They share the same predators.
 
Last edited:
Okay, I'll humour you, in the vain hope that you'll learn something

okay enlighten me martin if a LBB gull is able to chase off a herring gull why is a herring gull harder to kill? because it is a tiny bit bigger?

Small birds chase off larger birds all the time. Yesterday I watched a group of Barn Swallows chasing a Sparrowhawk. It would be some leap of thought to get from that observation to the idea that the Swallows are no easier to kill than the Sparrowhawk though.

Average weight of LBBG is 830g, female Herring Gull is 948g (12% heavier) male Herring Gull is 1200g (31% heavier). Not too tiny a difference.

scuba0095 said:
And if you really had that much experience how can you not know that great skuas kill herring gulls?

You do know that I've never claimed that Great Skuas don't kill Herring Gulls. Hopefully mods/admin will take action over your persistent use of strawman arguments. Try arguing with what people actually write, rather than making up things. It really isn't helping your credibility. As for 'really had that much experience'...I'll treat that with the contempt it deserves.

martin
 
I did not mean "chase" as in mob I meant chase as in chase it away from food. You are telling me you never seen a LBB gull dominate a herring gull over food?
 
I'd formulated a cogent answer to the points raised but I realised scuba0095 has read a book, so I'm buggered :( What can an angry ( ? ) old man who's only studied the birds in the wild put forward against such wisdom ). I bow out.

Chris

BTW Mr. 'I've read a book so I know all' scuba0095. Don't get so cocky and tell people your talking about Brown Skua, not South Polar Skua and then put up a photo of South Polar Skua to try and 'prove' your 'point'. I mentioned in a previous post that you should do your research but ......... you knew better.

Angry enough for you?

C
 
I was not the one who started with all the childish behaviour and talking down. I was just trying to talk about birds and learn more (from those with real experience). But for who knows what reasons so many got all upset over that.


Is this picture better? or would you prefer a video? Since you clearly never seen the 2 species interact.
 

Attachments

  • 1200146NGP5.jpg
    1200146NGP5.jpg
    108.8 KB · Views: 127
Last edited:
OK. I'll bite. Would you mind providing answers these questions, as I'm sure many on here would benefit?

1. The latest photograph shows a Northern Giant Petrel, a Black Vulture, a Kelp Gull and a South Polar Skua around a carcass. The Vulture is attempting to mantle the carcass, the Gull is feeding, it is impossible to assign a definite behaviour to the Giant Petrel and the Skua is standing there. What does that show, apart from the fact there are 4 species of bird around a food source?

2. I've mentioned before that you really should do your research. The photograph previous to that does not show a Caracara predating a duck, but a Magellan Goose. This is another of your 'straw men', an attempt to divert people away from your initial premise and so, not worth commenting on. But, as you've brought it up, could you comment on how this photograph refers to either the dominance, or not, of Caracara over Skua, or vice versa or how it applies to the strength of the feet of Caracaras?

3. The previous two photographs show ....... what? A Caracara and a Black Vulture, but is the Caracara the aggressor, or is it defending itself? No-one can tell from that photo. The second shows a feeding Northern Giant Petrel, an American Sheathbill and a South Polar Skua. Has the Skua just arrived and not started to feed yet? Yet again, no-one can tell. Random photos of birds standing close to each other or of birds in ambiguous interactions prove absolutely nothing.

4. You appear to be knowledgeable about raptors, Gulls, Ravens, Skuas, Giant Petrels and, now, Albatrosses. Where have you studied these birds, in a natural state, and for how long?

Chris
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 10 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top