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More madness on Malta (1 Viewer)

We still have the issue of "hunting with dogs" in the UK to deal with. I don't mean intentional hunting with dogs, what I mean is people turning their dogs loose in areas where there are ground nesting birds. There is little point in stopping the Maltese ritual wild bird slaughter if we are only going to prevent the birds from breeding when they do reach their breeding grounds.

Notices have been put up on Prees Heath in Shropshire requesting that people keep their dogs on leads during the period March 1st until 31st July. People have had their dogs off the lead every time I have been there.
 
But population growth isn't just about babies, it's also about old fogies living longer - for 50 years after they retire. A young Indian might well ask what right a 60 year old Briton has to tell him how many kids he should have. If the Briton stopped taking the statins and clinging on to life for half a century after their working life ends, then mayube there would be more room for his kids.

I am actually retired and I refuse to take the statins or the blood pressure tablets. I do see your argument here Alf, I see the same argument for the young Briton, old fogies clinging often with a very poor quality of life, other old fogies (who are actually well provided for) doing jobs that should be typically done by young people.
 
I am actually retired and I refuse to take the statins or the blood pressure tablets. I do see your argument here Alf, I see the same argument for the young Briton, old fogies clinging often with a very poor quality of life, other old fogies (who are actually well provided for) doing jobs that should be typically done by young people.

Hmm. I wonder if the Maltese shooters read this this thread and then think they can get away with it by claiming they only shoot the old birds to leave room for the young ones?
 
All this talk about crazies should include us in the colonies - thank you very much. We have plenty and lots of kinds. Anyway - our National Geographic did a story on the original topic - and I must say - it was quite brutal. A country like England (with it's history of natural history and such) must just cringe and cry concerning the slaughter. You have my sympathies. Now back to fighting Indians. Not your Indians. Ours don't use curry. My wife has my guns reloaded.

I hope this forum never changes.
 
Chris we have more than enough crazies too, it seems their conservation prospects look fairly promising, at last some encouraging news!

James.
 
I think the Duchess of Cambridge visiting Malta could be a good way of raising awareness of the issue, even if it isn't going to raised at "official" levels. People like Chris Packham and organisations like Birdlife Malta have certainly raised the profile in recent months, and I think they can capitalise on her visit and use it to gain even more publicity. For example, using social media is a great way to reach out to people, and by the use of agreed and organised hashtags on Twitter alongside her name, even more people can be reached.

I think it needs more of a groundswell of support from the general public to make real change happen. The government can easily ignore what it perceives as the opinion of a minority, but the more people contacting their government representatives the more likely it is to keep it in the minds of the government.
 
Encouraged by the number of comments posted condemning the trapping, ultimately it will be the will of the Maltese themselves who determine what happens in the future.

James.
 
Encouraged by the number of comments posted condemning the trapping, ultimately it will be the will of the Maltese themselves who determine what happens in the future.

James.

Yes, it is clear that many Maltese are as sickened, or more so, by the behaviour of the bird killing community, but unfortunately decisive action seems hamstrung by hunters being seen to hold the political balance between the main Maltese political parties.
 
Has anyone on here been to Malta for a holiday? One positive way to make a difference could be to get out there and do some birding. The more people seen on the island enjoying the birds that pass through the better bringing awareness to the situation and, who knows, perhaps a shift in public feeling on the matter of hunting. I know all this has been said already but for the time being it does seem a viable way of actually doing something about it. Perhaps birders who make an annual trip to Lesbos or the Spanish hotspots could try Malta for one year.

If so does anyone know what are the best areas on the island to choose a hotel close to some good birding sites?
 
Has anyone on here been to Malta for a holiday? One positive way to make a difference could be to get out there and do some birding. The more people seen on the island enjoying the birds that pass through the better bringing awareness to the situation and, who knows, perhaps a shift in public feeling on the matter of hunting. I know all this has been said already but for the time being it does seem a viable way of actually doing something about it. Perhaps birders who make an annual trip to Lesbos or the Spanish hotspots could try Malta for one year.

If so does anyone know what are the best areas on the island to choose a hotel close to some good birding sites?

Having seen the carnage in Cyprus, I don't fancy subjecting myself to Malta. I think there are huge parallels between the Malta situation and our own raptor persecution problem.

The will of the people is not enough when cronyism is involved and the issue is not mainstream enough.

A royal visit is surely the opportunity to at least make an attempt to move it to the mainstream.
 
Having seen the carnage in Cyprus, I don't fancy subjecting myself to Malta. I think there are huge parallels between the Malta situation and our own raptor persecution problem.

The will of the people is not enough when cronyism is involved and the issue is not mainstream enough.

A royal visit is surely the opportunity to at least make an attempt to move it to the mainstream.

I wouldn't bank on it. She'll probably end up telling them that arrrfully amusing tale of the time darling Harry blasted one of those Hen Harrier things out of the sky at Sanders a few years back. Tally faacking ho!
 
Has anyone on here been to Malta for a holiday? One positive way to make a difference could be to get out there and do some birding. The more people seen on the island enjoying the birds that pass through the better bringing awareness to the situation and, who knows, perhaps a shift in public feeling on the matter of hunting. I know all this has been said already but for the time being it does seem a viable way of actually doing something about it. Perhaps birders who make an annual trip to Lesbos or the Spanish hotspots could try Malta for one year.

If so does anyone know what are the best areas on the island to choose a hotel close to some good birding sites?

Having heard how binocular carrying tourists have been harassed by shooters, how friends (non-birders) felt intimidated when walking in countryside there and seeing how they treated Chris Packham, I'd only go there as part of an organised BirdLife Malta raptor camp.
 
The will of the people is not enough when cronyism is involved and the issue is not mainstream enough.

But 'the people' don't seem too bothered about it on Malta. One of the articles John Cantelo linked to suggested that a referendum on spring hunting would produce a landslide for the hunters. So I'm not convinced when people say hunters are a minority. They seem to be a majority of people who hold an opinion, and they seem a powerful political lobby due to the large number of votes they carry.

There is also a lot of conflation in this discussion about spring hunting (legal) and killing of protected species (illegal). They are very different things, and should be treated differently, one at a time.

The Maltese can justifiably say that illegal hunting is a crime that is difficult to police (just ask the RSPB about the problem of evidence, so this isn't necessarily fobbing off). They can also say that spring hunting is legal under the EU derogation laws, and has no noticeable conservation impact on the legal quarry species (Turtle Dove and Quail) - which is basically true.

So what do we (UK birders) actually want? An end to spring hunting? That's not realistic - they have legal and conservation evidence on their side. All we have is welfare grounds.

Do we want an end to illegal hunting? The Maltese can just say that it's already illegal, but it's difficult to prove and police. We can demand they do more, they can say they're doing as much as they can, we can say it's not enough, they can say they don't have the resources, etc etc. There's no obvious end game to this, until Maltese society changes.
 
But 'the people' don't seem too bothered about it on Malta. One of the articles John Cantelo linked to suggested that a referendum on spring hunting would produce a landslide for the hunters. So I'm not convinced when people say hunters are a minority. They seem to be a majority of people who hold an opinion, and they seem a powerful political lobby due to the large number of votes they carry.

There is also a lot of conflation in this discussion about spring hunting (legal) and killing of protected species (illegal). They are very different things, and should be treated differently, one at a time.

The Maltese can justifiably say that illegal hunting is a crime that is difficult to police (just ask the RSPB about the problem of evidence, so this isn't necessarily fobbing off). They can also say that spring hunting is legal under the EU derogation laws, and has no noticeable conservation impact on the legal quarry species (Turtle Dove and Quail) - which is basically true.

So what do we (UK birders) actually want? An end to spring hunting? That's not realistic - they have legal and conservation evidence on their side. All we have is welfare grounds.

Do we want an end to illegal hunting? The Maltese can just say that it's already illegal, but it's difficult to prove and police. We can demand they do more, they can say they're doing as much as they can, we can say it's not enough, they can say they don't have the resources, etc etc. There's no obvious end game to this, until Maltese society changes.

The spring hunting of Turtle Dove on Malta has no noticeable conservation impact on the species you say? across Europe this species declined with 73% between 1970 and 2010, hunting pressure during migration being cited as one of the main reasons for this decline, which makes you seem rather clueless.
 
It may well be that the problem of illegal hunting is simply not that serious an issue for either the government of Malta or the EU. People on this forum naturally have an interest in the long term future of birds and are angered and saddened by the shooting and trapping of wild birds. The public at large presumably have greater concerns such as the economy for example while the leaders focus on things like national security. Environmental issues always play second fiddle to other matters and sadly the situation on Malta is probably far down the list of priorities.

I'll continue to boycott Malta as a holiday destination but hundreds of thousands will continue to visit making my stance more of a moral one rather than an effective deterrent. The work that Birdlife in Malta does in schools is the only thing that might actually work, not a quick fix but hopefully a fix nonetheless.

James.
 
It may well be that the problem of illegal hunting is simply not that serious an issue for either the government of Malta or the EU. People on this forum naturally have an interest in the long term future of birds and are angered and saddened by the shooting and trapping of wild birds. The public at large presumably have greater concerns such as the economy for example while the leaders focus on things like national security. Environmental issues always play second fiddle to other matters and sadly the situation on Malta is probably far down the list of priorities.

I'll continue to boycott Malta as a holiday destination but hundreds of thousands will continue to visit making my stance more of a moral one rather than an effective deterrent. The work that Birdlife in Malta does in schools is the only thing that might actually work, not a quick fix but hopefully a fix nonetheless.

James.

Great post - there's just been a mega MTV music festival on Malta attended by about 50,000, which illustrates your point!

I hope Birdllife and Chris Packham continue their work there and that there are less and less youngsters wanting to shoot birds.
 
The spring hunting of Turtle Dove on Malta has no noticeable conservation impact on the species you say? across Europe this species declined with 73% between 1970 and 2010, hunting pressure during migration being cited as one of the main reasons for this decline, which makes you seem rather clueless.

Where's your references for that?

I have in front of me State of Europe's Common Birds 2008, which gives stats for Turtle Dove since the 1980s:

Western Europe = 80% decline
Central and Eastern Europe = 48% decline
Southern Europe = 2% decline.

So in the region of Malta, and the area of most intensive spring hunting (southern Europe) the decline is a negligible 2%. The region where Maltese birds migrate to also has a lower decline rate than western Europe, whose birds migrate through Gibraltar - nowhere near Malta. So that doesn't fit very well with a hunting explanation for the decline, and Maltese hunters could easily and correctly point to those stats and pose a conundrum.

All European birds do not pass through Malta, and so Malta cannot be responsible for your 73% pan-European decline. This is especially true for western European Turtle Doves, which go nowhere near Malta. So there is clearly another overriding factor driving the declines, besides Malta. So unless you can link shot birds on Malta to a declining population elsewhere in Europe (i.e it's the same birds, and it's a major reason), then there really is no link between spring hunting in Malta and population declines anywhere else in Europe. Even the general pattern doesn't fit.


A quote from the text:

As a long-distance migrant, the European
Turtle-dove faces threats on its migration routes
and wintering areas. Hunting can be seen as an
aggravating factor especially where it takes place
in spring during migration and the reproduction
period, as the species suffers from low
productivity and low adult and juvenile
survivorship (Glutz and Jensen 2007).
Attention must also be paid to possible
competition with the Eurasian Collared-dove,
Streptopelia decaocto, which is expanding in
Europe. Drought conditions and habitat
destruction in acacia scrub in the Sahel region,
where European Turtle-doves spend part of the
year, have coincided with the decline in numbers
(Jarry 1992). The regional diff erences in the
species’ trend (see Figure 9) are probably caused
by diff erent migration routes and wintering
areas of the populations and arable land
management in diff erent parts of Europe.
 
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But 'the people' don't seem too bothered about it on Malta. One of the articles John Cantelo linked to suggested that a referendum on spring hunting would produce a landslide for the hunters. So I'm not convinced when people say hunters are a minority. They seem to be a majority of people who hold an opinion, and they seem a powerful political lobby due to the large number of votes they carry.

There is also a lot of conflation in this discussion about spring hunting (legal) and killing of protected species (illegal). They are very different things, and should be treated differently, one at a time.

The Maltese can justifiably say that illegal hunting is a crime that is difficult to police (just ask the RSPB about the problem of evidence, so this isn't necessarily fobbing off). They can also say that spring hunting is legal under the EU derogation laws, and has no noticeable conservation impact on the legal quarry species (Turtle Dove and Quail) - which is basically true.

So what do we (UK birders) actually want? An end to spring hunting? That's not realistic - they have legal and conservation evidence on their side. All we have is welfare grounds.

Do we want an end to illegal hunting? The Maltese can just say that it's already illegal, but it's difficult to prove and police. We can demand they do more, they can say they're doing as much as they can, we can say it's not enough, they can say they don't have the resources, etc etc. There's no obvious end game to this, until Maltese society changes.

I've seen figures suggesting that 65% pf Maltese people actually oppose spring hunting - sorry, I can't find the reference. I'd also suggest that comparisons between control these sorts of crime in the UK and a very small island like Malta are mistaken. Similarly, although the killing of protected species is a different issue in some ways, there is little doubt that the two problems are linked and resolving one will assist the resolution of the other. I'm also not convinced that the it can be so boldly stated that blasting the breeding stock in spring has no 'noticable impact on legal quarry species'. They're not simply killing 'their birds', but 'our birds'. Will stopping spring hunting make everything dandy? Of course not, but it is one part of a wider strategy that should be pursued.
 
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