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Possible Kelp & Great Black-backed Gulls on Upper Texas Coast (1 Viewer)

Mark B Bartosik

Well-known member
I will greatly appreciate your comments on the ID of these two gulls. It seems that most people agree that this one is a Kelp Gull: http://www.pbase.com/mbb/quintana110808 but maybe someone can add different opinion to the discussion.

Here is more trouble as some people think it could be a Lesser not a Great. Please share your knowledge and experience. On one photo it is clearly visible that bird has pink legs that is characteristic for the Great and not for the Lesser. It will be interesting to hear both sides of the argument.
Photos can be check here: http://www.pbase.com/mbb/quintana110808_2

BTW I can not find nowhere a photo showing all this colors on the bill together: pink/red/black/yellow.

Thanks for your help,

Mark​
 
The Kelp Gull looks almost perfect - I would definitely call it one.

On the other one the bill color and size looks good for Greater Black-backed but I am hesitant to say it is one, especially with the scarcity in Texas.
 
The first looks good for Kelp Gull to me. Very dark mantel shade and that Western Gull like head and bill profile.

There's something wrong with that second one; I mean besides the fact that it looks like it went through a blender! Bill is too heavy and thick looking for a LBBG. Although quite worn, I cannot recall any GBBG pics I've seen where the plumage is so worn that the mantel looks tow shades paler, approaching LBBG. Also, LBBG would be unlikely in Texas during the late spring to mid-summer when most gulls look like this. GBBG would be perhaps even more unlikely this far south at this time of year.

I've been blasted for this before but I'll say it again anyway; one has to consider the "Chandeleur" Gull in this area, especially sense it's origins would be relatively close.
 
hi mark, shonn,

first one is a kelp gull.
like many ind. seen in the northern hemisphere it has a different moult score than its conspecific mates from the south, having shed p4 by now, this is almost as fast (or late, however you want to see the inversion) as in extreme northern species, e.g. siberian gull with delayed moult. however, definitely kelp gull, possibly a younger adult (very small mirror).

the other gull i'd tend to say it is a pure GBBG which in such southern latitudes has suffered from sun and sandy winds possibly thus looking so messy. it has a large p10 mirror and is too dark for western LBBG (also totally wrong structure!). chandeleur gull i'd expect to be lighter mantled. i think it has indeed been obs. and photographed now, 8.november, (see moult). pure larus marinus for me.

cheers,
 
Hello Mark.

Have you also seen the discussion on Surfbirds forum?

Very good images as usual!

JanJ
 
Hi Jan,

My debts are growing. Want to say thank you one more time for your advice in the past - I bought the book Gulls of the Americas by Howell and Dunn. In fact I have two right now as another one was send to me as same photo award shortly after my purchase. Great account. Not sure if it makes me smarter but it is a great help. I am still quite confused with many gulls species. I never have much time to spend with them and photographing these birds is rather only a side product when chasing skimmers, some terns etc. Maybe because I still have too many confusions I try to avoid them.

But back to a possible GBBG - yes, I checked your post but I am not a member there so I could not post my reply. If you only have time please write as many more arguments as possible. Reasons: Most people who contacted me ID this gull as GBBG but for some reason a few say no or stick to LBBG. Normally with so many opinions pro GBBG I would not take a few voices under serious consideration but some are coming from people I respect. Everybody makes mistakes, sometimes it is hard to admit wrong thinking but I think we all want to know a true answer. So again if you can point in detail why it is GBBG and why it cannot be a LBBG I will greatly appreciate your effort and time. BTW, in case you are not aware I uploaded more photos of both gulls including back view of “GBBG” in flight and close up of pink legs. Also detailed Kelp wing photo showing that P3 is growing (at least on one wing, not visibly on first posted photos) http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/105744614 and comparison to other 3 gull species http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/105744595. But I think the Kelp ID case is closed anyway.

All the best,

Mark

P.S. And thanks for your kind words about my photos.
 
Er I'm not so sure . . .

The wings look too long and the head is not angular enough. Also, even though the plumage is worn, I'd expect more of alar bar than that.

Let me have a think about this and I'll get back to you later. (I'm s'posed to be studying!!)
 
hi mark, shonn,

first one is a kelp gull.
like many ind. seen in the northern hemisphere it has a different moult score than its conspecific mates from the south, having shed p4 by now, this is almost as fast (or late, however you want to see the inversion) as in extreme northern species, e.g. siberian gull with delayed moult. however, definitely kelp gull, possibly a younger adult (very small mirror).

the other gull i'd tend to say it is a pure GBBG which in such southern latitudes has suffered from sun and sandy winds possibly thus looking so messy. it has a large p10 mirror and is too dark for western LBBG (also totally wrong structure!). chandeleur gull i'd expect to be lighter mantled. i think it has indeed been obs. and photographed now, 8.november, (see moult). pure larus marinus for me.

cheers,
lou, shouldn't a Kelp show similar "bleaching" at the same latitudes?
 
Hi Mark.
Suggestion Kelp Gull is alright.
The other one is probably a 4th/adult winter GBBG for some very obvious reasons, and the most obvious reason - is the bill! You will never see a LBBG with a bill shape like that! Next obvious reason is structure - a heavy stocky body, 'frontheavy' with a flatish forehead and the 'bullneck' but note also the different headshapes in image 3-6.

Bill is heavy and bulbous-tipped with a pronounced gonys angle (same as many Kelp) much more slender in LBBG.
Difficult to judge primary pattern (has renewed 6 inner primaries with p7 growing and p8-10 not yet dropped. Upperparts tone has no value from these images, worn brownish, but some new upperparts feathers looks blacker than graellsii LBBG but could be matched by some intermedius, in fact GBBG is very similar to Baltic LBBG in upperparts tone.
The leg colour matches GBBG but non-breeding LBBG have dull yellow legs or yellowish- flesha and younger birds greyish yellow-greyish-flesh legs.

Check some GBBG here Mark:

http://www.gull-research.org/gbbg/gbbg1cy/gbbg01cyaug.htm

Even more massive bill on this GBBG, but note the differences in Structure and bill size with the LBBG:

http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=76016

http://www.birdpix.nl/album_search....rch=lesser+black-backed+gull&personal_album=1

JanJ
 
Last edited:
Jan,

I will never be able to repay the debts. Thanks again. Also for the ‘gold mine’ of information you were so kind to provide.

All the best,

Mark
 
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